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General Conference - Fall 2010

What did Packer say that was so controversial?

Homosexualilty is against nature?

A 5th grade biology book makes a very strong case for this.


Homosexuals can change their sexuality?


No that controversial. My uncle is gay but had many girlfriends and female sexual partners well into his 30's and says he still finds women attractive. Didnt Anne Heche reverse?

People have different opinions, just because we have different opinions doesnt make people ignorant or bigoted. Me saying that all people that dont believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God are ignorant/bigots is just as ludacris.
 
I don't believe anything has to be pre-approved.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. From what I understand, the President reads all talks before they are given and delegates talks subjects as well. They do have to be approved by him. I could be wrong, but this is what I've heard.
 
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I don't see his speech as a message of hate - I see it as a message of anti-diversity - which can sort of lead to hate.

Consider a hypothetical whereby the church prez had a revelation from god that left-handedness was now a sin. Then the church, in its official position towards left handers, stated that they should be treated humanly and with love, but that those with a tenancy to use their left hands would need to overcome their desire to use their left hand if they wanted to experience the full glory of the afterlife.

How do you think left handers would feel? How would you like to make the choice - experience earthly passions like being good at sports or fighting your tendency to use your strong hand so that you could live a glorious afterlife? Sure, you could switch hands and still be functional... but you would never have the dexterity and comfort like that of a natural right hander. You could live morally at the cost of being uncomfortable in your own skin or you could be yourself and stress about living in sin for the rest of your life... easy choice, eh?

On the other side of the equation are the righty's... they are the majority, and they feel that its totally normal to be right handed. They probably just make the natural assumption that left handers can change if they want... and if they just put their mind to it they can gain the same dexterity as any natural righty. It probably wouldn't be surprising if a few of those righty's looked down on lefty's as lazy and immoral. It might not even be a stretch to imagine some of those righteous rightys discriminating against leftys... though not because the church told them to... right?

OK... left handedness... homosexuality... totally not the same thing... right? Well, I dunno about that one.

Left handers make up about 10% of the population... gays make up about 10% of the population.
Left handers can physically do anything (that matters) right handers can do. Same with gays.
Left handers are just as mentally capable of anything that right handers are capable of. Same with gays.
Left handers look the same as right handers. Same with gays.

Thank god the bible doesn't condemn us leftys!

Yeah... I know there's one big thing that some of you are thinking about - looking at you beantown - but before you type it in and "submit reply" take a minute and think about it critically. :)

I might just say that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether a person is left handed or right handed... just as I would say it doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether a person is homosexual or not. But interestingly, the church (and many others) doesn't seem to agree with my logic... they must know something I don't... oh yeah... the bible... that book, that if taken literally, tells us that we are ALL living in sin in one way or another. But once again, its funny how many churches (and many others in general) seem to let some sins slide (like the ones that everyone are guilty of) while they harp on others (which only a minority are guilty of).

If I knew any better, I might say that messages, like this recent one, are an encouragement to all be the same... to do, act, and look like everyone else. Heaven forbid we embrace our differences (those that don't bring harm to anyone) and live together and learn from each other. Heaven forbid that ALL people live comfortably in their own skin and contribute to society with confidence and vigor. Heaven forbid that people just get over petty differences, like sexuality, and focus on more important stuff.
 
Honest question: How are the "talks" given at General Conference selected?

As far as I know, the church president (Pres. Monson, currently) selects the speakers, most likely in consultation with his counselors. Then each speaker selects his/her own topic. (There might be the occasional time that the church president asks a speaker to talk on a particular topic, but the things speakers have said from time to time lead me to believe that that's not how it is generally done.)
 
As far as I know, the church president (Pres. Monson, currently) selects the speakers, most likely in consultation with his counselors. Then each speaker selects his/her own topic. (There might be the occasional time that the church president asks a speaker to talk on a particular topic, but the things speakers have said from time to time lead me to believe that that's not how it is generally done.)

This is interesting. So this there any way to tell which talks are "canonical?" Or are they all simply advisory?

If the church isn't exercising prior editorial control then obviously it's not all approved material right? Obviously a lot of mormons today disclaim McConkie. If things change in the future in terms of church social policy (as we've seen before on other issues) does Packer become the modern-day McConkie?
 
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Packer really ignited quite a fire with these comments. Responses are coming in from all over the place, and it's burning up the news headlines. The protest that I linked early already has over 500 Yes RSVP responses in 1 day, with over 400 Maybe responses. I won't be surprised if we have well over 1,000 people show up.

Now here's another little gem from Elder Packer that has come to light thanks to his latest remarks. The following text is from a pamphlet titled “To Young Men Only” released in 1976. Obviously that was some time ago, but with his latest remarks I would wager he still feels the same way.

I repeat, very plainly, physical mischief with another man is forbidden. It is forbidden by the Lord.

There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.

After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.”

“Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief.

“But I floored him,” he said.

After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way”

I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.

Link to the full text of the pamphlet
 
Packer really ignited quite a fire with these comments. Responses are coming in from all over the place, and it's burning up the news headlines. The protest that I linked early already has over 500 Yes RSVP responses in 1 day, with over 400 Maybe responses. I won't be surprised if we have well over 1,000 people show up.

A whole 1000?!

Now here's another little gem from Elder Packer that has come to light thanks to his latest remarks. The following text is from a pamphlet titled “To Young Men Only” released in 1976. Obviously that was some time ago, but with his latest remarks I would wager he still feels the same way.

LOL your pamphlet reminds me of a commedian that said the best way to get out of having to tell your parents you got an F was to start off by making it sound like you are gay and coming out. By the time you get to, "I got an F in math" your dad will be high fiving you and tell you, "Great job son! Keep up the good work!!" LOL
 
I heard there was a talk corrected once. Where the guy said something wrong. The conducting counselor got up and corrected it after the talk and then moved on. Long time ago.
 
This is interesting. So this there any way to tell which talks are "canonical?" Or are they all simply advisory?

If the church isn't exercising prior editorial control then obviously it's not all approved material right?

I think that Archie's comment above, that the talks are vetted beforehand, is probably accurate these days. Probably by First Presidency, I'm guessing, or maybe even other apostles from the Quorum of the Twelve, not necessarily by Pres. Monson himself. So even though the topics are not mandated, there is some editorial control in that respect.

However, the question about which talks are canonical (as in should have the authority of scripture) is a deeper subject. Personally, I probably have a much more narrow view on that than most Mormons. I think the President of the Church has authority to declare canon;(*) talks by others may or may not be canon.(**) I wrote this a few years ago (10?) on the topic:
https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/colton/personal/lds/conference.htm

sirkickyass said:
Obviously a lot of mormons today disclaim McConkie. If things change in the future in terms of church social policy (as we've seen before on other issues) does Packer become the modern-day McConkie?

For what it's worth, McConkie himself disclaimed McConkie, if you are talking about the topic of blacks and the priesthood. I think his comments here are important:

McConkie said:
There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things. . . . All I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world. We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness, and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don't matter any more. It doesn't make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year [1978]. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the gentiles.
(copied & pasted from https://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQRace.shtml, since that was the easiest place for me to find the quote.)

(*) That's not to say that everything the church president says is infallible, of course.
(**) That's not to say that we should discount them, of course.
 
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Here's a letter that was posted on facebook. Food for thought.

In the wake of President Packer's hurtful words yesterday, I decided to take a few minutes between classes and type out a few thoughts that have been begging to be expressed.


There's a certain habit that most LDS church members have that strikes me as being incredibly hypocritical, and frustrates me to my core. It suggests to me that knowing/seeking the truth is not very important, but the real priority of the faithful masses is to avoid confronting anything that challenges the comfort they feel in their "unshakeable" testimony. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, isn't it.

I'm referring to the inconsistency in the way most mormons view the authority of the "prophets and apostles."

Faithful LDS church members strive to always obey the "prophets and apostles" because they know they are called of God, speak to him directly, and would never leave the church members astray. At the same time, these same people dismiss the past errors of these "prophets, seers, and revelators" that they sustain without hesitation, saying "they're just men, they make mistakes too."

So what is it? Are they prophets and apostles, or just men? Are they vicars of Christ, or do they speak they're own opinions, informed by their own experiences, contemplation, and studies? Are they simply (arguably) wise men, who try to live and teach the teachings of Christ, or do they speak to him directly, and tell us his words, and his will, in a way that we cannot discern for ourselves without them?

Many LDS people who have been close to me throughout my life continue to unapologetically oppose gay marriage because the prophets say they should. Many of them say "I don't understand it myself, but I know that I need to follow the prophet's counsel." When asked about all the apostles that have left the church after Joseph Smith's death, they respond that they were weak men, who gave into temptation and satan's influence. When asked about the crazy doctrinal teachings of Brigham Young, which the church has distanced itself from, they say that he is entitled to make mistakes, and we can't hold him to perfection. When asked about all the prophets and apostles being repeatedly duped by Mark Hoffman, and praising God for uncovering the sacred, yet fraudulent salamander letter, they have a a way of dismissing that too, while maintaining that the words that come out of the church leadership's mouths are as good as scripture. When asked about the things President Kimball, and Bruce R. Mcconkie wrote that are clearly false, they conveniently reply that those books were written by Kimball and Mcconkie the men, not Kimball and Mcconkie the prophets, and were never endorsed by the church. I call bull ****. I know from first hand experience that when mormon missionaries confess to certain sins, mission presidents give them the miracle of forgiveness, and tell them to read it, apply it, and remember that it was written by Christ's mouthpiece on earth.

My point: If mormons can't, and don't, expect perfection out of their prophets, shouldn't they be critically analyzing everything they say before following it? If you don't understand the Church's position on gay marriage, for example, shouldn't you excuse their position the same way you excuse their past positions? They won't, because it's too hard. They'd have to think a little, and they've been programmed not to do that. They'd have to develop personal ethics, and make personal moral choices that require some pondering and thought. That's too damn hard. It's easier to just internalize what's spouted out, and when the church gradually changes as a whole, you change with it. A personal relationship with the God you claim to worship is too difficult for most, because his messages never come so clearly and so black and white as the instructions from the conference center pulpit. Most mormons I know don't want to be bothered with trying to be good people, they just want to feel safe and cozy in their 100% knowledge that they know the whole restored truth, and everybody else is missing out. Nothing scares an average person of faith more than a doubt.
 
What did Packer say that was so controversial?

Homosexualilty is against nature?

A 5th grade biology book makes a very strong case for this.


Homosexuals can change their sexuality?


No that controversial. My uncle is gay but had many girlfriends and female sexual partners well into his 30's and says he still finds women attractive. Didnt Anne Heche reverse?

People have different opinions, just because we have different opinions doesnt make people ignorant or bigoted. Me saying that all people that dont believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God are ignorant/bigots is just as ludacris.

Does boiling down complex issues like sexuality to a black and white context make you feel better?
 
Here's a letter that was posted on facebook. Food for thought.

...My point: If mormons can't, and don't, expect perfection out of their prophets, shouldn't they be critically analyzing everything they say before following it? If you don't understand the Church's position on gay marriage, for example, shouldn't you excuse their position the same way you excuse their past positions? They won't, because it's too hard. They'd have to think a little, and they've been programmed not to do that. They'd have to develop personal ethics, and make personal moral choices that require some pondering and thought. That's too damn hard. It's easier to just internalize what's spouted out, and when the church gradually changes as a whole, you change with it....

good post Baby P, thanks for sharing those comments

my (to a degree, cynical) point of view is that the above statement reflects what is true for most religions, and probably goes to the very core of why most people follow any particular religion in the first place - it sort of absolves them from having to think through all the nitty-gritty themselves
 
facebook post said:
If you don't understand the Church's position on gay marriage, for example, shouldn't you excuse their position the same way you excuse their past positions? They won't, because it's too hard. They'd have to think a little, and they've been programmed not to do that.

Wow, the condescension is so thick you could slice it with a knife.

facebook post said:
They'd have to develop personal ethics, and make personal moral choices that require some pondering and thought. That's too damn hard.

I don't even know where to start. I'm not sure, BabyPeterzz, why you felt that this was food for thought. I've been taught my whole life in the church that all important choices require pondering and thought.

facebook post said:
It's easier to just internalize what's spouted out, and when the church gradually changes as a whole, you change with it. A personal relationship with the God you claim to worship is too difficult for most, because his messages never come so clearly and so black and white as the instructions from the conference center pulpit. Most mormons I know don't want to be bothered with trying to be good people...

...and most Mormons I know are concerned with little else. :shrug: Maybe the facebook author needs to get out more.
 
Here's a letter that was posted on facebook. Food for thought.

It says that we need to expect perfection out of our apostles, but by the standards of the church perfection is not possible. Although we hold these men to a Christlike standard, we cannot fret when they fail, because these are men... not gods. Joseph Smith used the urim and thummim for treasure seeking purposes (and I believe was cutoff from the lord for a period of time), men like McConkie have corrected previous statemenst which they proclaimed from the mountain top as "the word". Nephi in 2nd Nephi pleads to the lord for the sake of his soul in The Psalm of Nephi (2nd Nephi 5?), because he cannot stand that he is wicked (although probably less wicked then you or I will ever be), yet has had the spirit of the lord affect his life so deeply. There are even stipulations in D&C that say that many things are "yet to be revealed", just as the doctrine giving blacks the priesthood changed. Will the doctrine on homosexuality change? I don't know how it could without the plan falling apart, but it could.

The LDS church is just preserving the family as determined by the plan, they won't change as long as the doctrine stays the same. So I think protesters are wasting their time. It isn't a democratic process, it is a divine process.

Mormons will accept what the prophets say
 
Wow, the condescension is so thick you could slice it with a knife.



I don't even know where to start. I'm not sure, BabyPeterzz, why you felt that this was food for thought. I've been taught my whole life in the church that all important choices require pondering and thought.



...and most Mormons I know are concerned with little else. :shrug: Maybe the facebook author needs to get out more.

Man, it's a gay ex-mormons opinion. Take it for what it's worth. What about the rest of the post?
 
It says that we need to expect perfection out of our apostles, but by the standards of the church perfection is not possible. Although we hold these men to a Christlike standard, we cannot fret when they fail, because these are men... not gods. Joseph Smith used the urim and thummim for treasure seeking purposes (and I believe was cutoff from the lord for a period of time), men like McConkie have corrected previous statemenst which they proclaimed from the mountain top as "the word". Nephi in 2nd Nephi pleads to the lord for the sake of his soul in The Psalm of Nephi (2nd Nephi 5?), because he cannot stand that he is wicked (although probably less wicked then you or I will ever be), yet has had the spirit of the lord affect his life so deeply. There are even stipulations in D&C that say that many things are "yet to be revealed", just as the doctrine giving blacks the priesthood changed. Will the doctrine on homosexuality change? I don't know how it could without the plan falling apart, but it could.

The LDS church is just preserving the family as determined by the plan, they won't change as long as the doctrine stays the same. So I think protesters are wasting their time. It isn't a democratic process, it is a divine process.

Mormons will accept what the prophets say

Thanks for that.

So apostles and prophets are men, and imperfect. And Mormons will accept what the prophets say. But what if this issue one of those human errors? So you're saying the quest for truth stops at the prophets who's testimony may be laced with falsities?
 
Man, it's a gay ex-mormons opinion. Take it for what it's worth. What about the rest of the post?

Well, it's silly for him to suppose that Mormons are too dumb to have thought about those things before. (At least, that's how his post came across to me. And it's ironic that when insulting the intelligence of Mormons, he misspelled "their".)

When he asks, "So what is it? Are they prophets and apostles, or just men?" I respond "False dichotomy". They are both, obviously. I fully support Pres. Monson as a prophet, and believe that he has the ability/responsibility to proclaim God's word to the world today. That doesn't mean that every single comment Pres. Monson makes comes directly from God. It does mean that I should take Pres. Monson's comments seriously, and give serious thought about them. Similarly with other church leaders, but I would say to a lesser extent the farther "down the chain of command" you go.(*)

I think a lot of talks at conference were inspired, and I will think and ponder about how to apply those principles in my life and the life of my family... but "inspired" != "infallible" so it won't shake my testimony if (for example) a General Authority is found to be making up stories in his conference talks (nods to Elder Dunn).

(*) (This paragraph added after the initial post) For example, when I was a ward mission leader in California a while back I had to deal with a mission president who was (in my opinion) seriously abusing his power by instituting unreasonable rules for the missionaries and threatening to send them home in disgrace if they disobeyed. I told the missionaries I dealt with that "When all is said and done, you are responsible to God for your actions, not to the mission president. So, try to follow the mission rules as best you can, but if they come in conflict with basic courtesy and politeness, the scriptural injunction to love your neighbor trumps the mission president's wacky rules."
 
Well, it's silly for him to suppose that Mormons are too dumb to have thought about those things before. (At least, that's how his post came across to me. And it's ironic that when insulting the intelligence of Mormons, he misspelled "their".)

When he asks, "So what is it? Are they prophets and apostles, or just men?" I respond "False dichotomy". They are both, obviously. I fully support Pres. Monson as a prophet, and believe that he has the ability/responsibility to proclaim God's word to the world today. That doesn't mean that every single comment Pres. Monson makes comes directly from God. It does mean that I should take Pres. Monson's comments seriously, and give serious thought about them. Similarly with other church leaders, but I would say to a lesser extent the farther "down the chain of command" you go.(*)

I think a lot of talks at conference were inspired, and I will think and ponder about how to apply those principles in my life and the life of my family... but "inspired" != "infallible" so it won't shake my testimony if (for example) a General Authority is found to be making up stories in his conference talks (nods to Elder Dunn).

(*) (This paragraph added after the initial post) For example, when I was a ward mission leader in California a while back I had to deal with a mission president who was (in my opinion) seriously abusing his power by instituting unreasonable rules for the missionaries and threatening to send them home in disgrace if they disobeyed. I told the missionaries I dealt with that "When all is said and done, you are responsible to God for your actions, not to the mission president. So, try to follow the mission rules as best you can, but if they come in conflict with basic courtesy and politeness, the scriptural injunction to love your neighbor trumps the mission president's wacky rules."

I see where you are coming from. But is it possible you're being a little defensive here and kind missing the bigger picture.

Obviously, the things this kid mentions in his letter do not apply to every Mormon out there, but I know many that use this line of reasoning when ever the LDS church is questioned. These issues are serious and require some of us to look at ourselves and ask tough questions.

Here's an article in today's paper. Believe me, the jury is out, even amongst the LDS churches own members.

https://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50413221-76/church-lds-packer-speech.html.csp
 
However, the question about which talks are canonical (as in should have the authority of scripture) is a deeper subject. Personally, I probably have a much more narrow view on that than most Mormons. I think the President of the Church has authority to declare canon;(*) talks by others may or may not be canon.(**) I wrote this a few years ago (10?) on the topic:
https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/colton/personal/lds/conference.htm

Is it fair to say then that you believe some conference talks are incorrect or are incompatible in some sense with the totality of the views of God since they are are not all canonical?

If two conference talks contained conflicting messages (for the sake of argument we'll say they are from people of the same level, for example both seventies) how do you choose, or is it possible that you may disagree with both and have some third option?

I think where I'm trying to go is here: is it possible to be a) both a good Mormon and b) disagree with the church on this issue? Is there room for dissent without being evil or in sin?

And before I get blasted here by people who aren't colton (who I have a decent history with when it comes to discussing issues related to Mormonism, so I doubt he would take these questions from me the wrong way) I think it is extraordinarily difficult to cast me as an anti-Mormon. Please don't get defensive, I am truly asking in as respectful a manner as possible.
 
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