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Getting CP3 and Granger

I dont know why people have been so quick to write of Harris. Sure theres no way hes a top 10 pg, but his contract isn't ridiculous and he is still above average and imo at the top of the second tier pgs. I do think that Holiday, Collison, Stuckey, and maybe Lowry? are perfect fits for this whole new youth movement for the jazz. If they could somehow swing a big man and devin harris for maybe collison and granger or holiday and iggy (although his contract sorta sucks) the jazz would definitely come out ahead imo.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Agree whole-heartedly that Harris is not a top 10 PG, but he is a proven quantity. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, especially when our odds of getting a top 10 PG to replace him are pretty long.

Proven to be pretty average. Seriously, what's he proven?

But to put a second year player who has yet to prove anything and a rookie who has yet to play a game in your top 10 makes the list suspect. Yet to prove anything? Philly made the playoffs as the 5th seed, largely due to Holiday's play. What has Collison done? He made it too but had far inferior numbers to Holiday's despite being three years older. Jennings? The kid can't shoot to save his life and leaves a lot to be desired as a point guard. Kidd and Miller I can live with but I ommitted them purposefully based on their age and lack of upside...but I understood that they and some other players could slide into my top 10 or just out of it, either way, ahead of Harris...hence why I asked him if he needed me to go on. Kidd, Miller or even Collison or Jennings belong there over Irving and Holiday, imo, right now. That might change as those 2 play, but they sure as hell haven't earned a top 10 spot yet.
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Keep in mind that I named 11 guys I myself and I think the far majority of NBA GM's would choose over Harris. I said that originally. Does this make them better? Probably not. But that's like comparing Martin Gortat to Derrick Favors. One's proven himself to be a solid center in this league while one has proven nothing. But the likelihood that the latter surpasses Gortat's is very high and every single NBA GM would want Favors over him. The likelihood in my opinion that Irving becomes a far superior player to Harris is a lock imo and I think every single GM would pick him over Harris. Has he proven nothing? Sure, I suppose but it wouldn't surprise me if he's a better point guard this year already, rookie or not. Holiday already is better imo.
 
somebody said:
One could make much the same objections about Kidd when he was in New Jersey.
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You mean the guy that led them to consecutive finals appearances? Yeah, my mistake.

Jazz fans want the John Stockton / Deron Williams super-point guard trend to continue, but it's completely unnecessary especially when you can use our assets to make our team deeper and more well-rounded instead of dressing our point guard in gold.
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Holy ****ing straw-man argument. Care to show me who has said that or when?

Notice who was right below Devin Harris on that list: Rajon Rondo.
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Perfect. One of the most overrated players that I can recall. Rhetorical question: What has he done that wasn't contingent on some of the HOF-ers around him?


Harris isn't a bad player and I don't have a fundamental objection to him as a player or a person. On a contender stocked with shooters (say, the Mavericks), he'd be great. On a rebuilding team where there are no reliable shooters, he's basically the oldest player, and having a game that won't age well (assuming he remains the player he's been, which he has been his whole career with exception to a spike in '08-'09), it's a waste of time.
 
SalmonHobo said:
Keep in mind that I named 110 guys I myself and I think the far majority of NBA GM's would choose over Harris. I said that orginally.
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You posted your list in direct response to a claim that Harris is a top 10 PG, hence my mistake of thinking you meant that was your list of the top 10 (or 11) PG's.

And I said Harris is a "proven quantity", which means he has shown over his career just exactly what you are going to get. See the phrase "proven quantity" implies you know what you are getting. Typically nothing more and nothing less. Sometimes it is better to keep a proven quantity than to gamble on an unproven quantity, especially when you can't guarantee one of the top 10 guys out there. See, that is what it means "the devil you know is better".....oh nevermind.



Yer right!!
 
SalmonHobo said:
Keep in mind that I named 11 guys I myself and I think the far majority of NBA GM's would choose over Harris. I said that originally. Does this make them better? Probably not. But that's like comparing Martin Gortat to Derrick Favors. One's proven himself to be a solid center in this league while one has proven nothing. But the likelihood that the latter surpasses Gortat's is very high and every single NBA GM would want Favors over him. The likelihood in my opinion that Irving becomes a far superior player to Harris is a lock imo and I think every single GM would pick him over Harris. Has he proven nothing? Sure, I suppose but it wouldn't surprise me if he's a better point guard this year already, rookie or not. Holiday already is better imo.
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At the end of the day Harris is a good pg just not a top 10 pg by any means. Thats not really a knock against him, more of just a sign of how improved pg play has come in the past few years. I mean in the 2008-2009 some of the "best" pgs where Jameer Nelson, Jose Calderon, and Nate Robinson... But nowadays with players like Holiday, Lowry, Ellis, Collison, and etc a player like Harris who is at best when he has a high usage rate just doesn't warrant being considered an elite guard. That being said I think the Jazz are definitely better off keeping Harris unless they get, not necessarily a proven young talent, but as salmonhobo says one almost guaranteed to have a better ceiling than where Harris is now.

Itd be nice if wasnt a tweener too.... Holiday is where its at. Stuckey is interesting too, its just a bit disturbing that he couldn't put up better stats considering how bad his team was.
 
NUMBERICA said:
You mean the guy (Kidd) that led them (NJ) to consecutive finals appearances? Yeah, my mistake.
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I had this argument with a guy here in Dallas when the Mavericks traded Harris for Jason Kidd. He argued for the past few years that Dallas would regret this trade. Well, he changed his tune a couple of weeks ago and admitted he was wrong. In my opinion, Harris is a decent PG that might be good for us this upcoming season but he is not the long term solution - Just like in Dallas and in New Jersey.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Perfect. One of the most overrated players that I can recall. Rhetorical question: What has he done that wasn't contingent on some of the HOF-ers around him?
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You seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying Rondo is great, I'm saying that the Celtics were successful with a point-guard that is listed below Devin Harris on the PER rankings. When you dismiss Rondo you're actually making my point, which is that it's a mistake to pour assets into a Chris Paul at the expense of team depth and other positions that, historically speaking, are more important to winning a championship than this idea of having a Stockton/Williams caliber point-guard (an idea, believe it or not, that routinely manifests itself on this board. Take a look at this thread, for example).
 
Jerche12 said:
https://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3vsd7s3

Hornets
Throw in the Warriors first round pick in 2012 that Utah has and another future first round pick and its not bad value for Paul. Okur is an expiring contract and yet can still provide some value in his 1 year left, at worst they swing him again to a contender for young prospects. Devin Harris is a top 10 pg easily and justifiably if he stays healthy. CJ Miles and Hansbrough are young, talented, albeit often inconsistent, players that the Hornets can build around and with only 6 players under contract currently they'll be primed for free agency in 2012. Hell even give them Ante Tomic from oversees if he ever pans out and comes over to the states word is he'll be pretty good.

They'll still need to figure out a way to get out of the contracts of both Ariza and Okafor but I'm sure one championship contender will bite on Okafor after seeing how a defensive center, Tyson Chandler, can drastically change title hopes. By getting rid one of them they suddenly have a ton of cap space, two future first rounders, and young talented players in what they net back from either Ariza/Okafor and CJ Miles, Hansbrough, and a healthy Devin Harris

I'm guessing David West is a lost cause, but if they can resign Carl Landry to a reasonable price he'll only add to their young rebuilding efforts.

Jazz
Jazz get their PG of the future in Paul and an all-star SF in Granger. At the same time they get rid of the log-jam at PF/C by dealing Okur and Jefferson. While dealing away both CJ Miles and Raja Bell puts a lot of pressure on the rookie Alec Burks and 2nd year man Hayward to have productive seasons any trade that nets you Chris Paul is a plus. Re-sign AK and Earl Watson to a reasonable price and the Jazz are set with a very promising mix of veterans and young players.

Pacers
Pacers get the post presence they've been lacking in Jefferson and veteran leadership in Raja Bell for a young team. In one year that terrible Posey contract is gone and they'll have a very talented core in Jefferson, George Hill, Collison, Hibbert, and at times Brandon Rush going into the future with a ton a cap space.

The Hornets get value for Paul before he bolts a sure fire high pick from the Jazz via the Warriors, along with another 1st round pick, young talent, and cap space. The Jazz get Paul and Granger enough said. The Pacers get Jefferson at the age of 25 going forward with their young core and cap space.

Wishful to say the last, but what do you think?
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You wasted your time.no way the hornets or pacers do this
 
SalmonHobo said:
Derrick Rose
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Steve Nash
Rajon Rondo
Russell Westbrook
John Wall
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Kyrie Irving
Jrue Holiday

That's 11. Must I go on with guys I'd rather have then Devin running the point?

Devin's an average point guard. Maybe slightly above average. Nothing more.
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In my opinion if Devin Harris played for Boston, Seattle, OKC, SA, Denver Philly or Memphis his averages would be a lot better. There really arent too many flaws to his game, good shooter, decent passer decent defender in his earlier years, good size and stellar speed; he certainly isnt a great passer to the extents of williams paul nash and rondo, but he isnt awful by any means. You guys need to take into account that if a player like Rajon Rondo played for the Nets for 4 years he wouldnt be nearly as highly-touted, and the flipside must be understood for Devin Harris as well. Besides, he did average 20+ points onl 2 seasons ago, and can definitely be utilized as a season third option in an offense containing potentially great shooting guards, and bigmen. I am seriously looking forward to next season for a variety of reasons, and feel that we should only swap devin harris and deals we know for SURE that we are getting the better end of in terms of who plays our PG position next season. He started for only 16 games, and played pretty darn good from my memory. Be patient.
 
dalamon said:
In my opinion if Devin Harris played for Boston, Seattle, OKC, SA, Denver Philly or Memphis his averages would be a lot better. There really arent too many flaws to his game, good shooter, decent passer decent defender in his earlier years, good size and stellar speed; he certainly isnt a great passer to the extents of williams paul nash and rondo, but he isnt awful by any means. You guys need to take into account that if a player like Rajon Rondo played for the Nets for 4 years he wouldnt be nearly as highly-touted, and the flipside must be understood for Devin Harris as well. Besides, he did average 20+ points onl 2 seasons ago, and can definitely be utilized as a season third option in an offense containing potentially great shooting guards, and bigmen. I am seriously looking forward to next season for a variety of reasons, and feel that we should only swap devin harris and deals we know for SURE that we are getting the better end of in terms of who plays our PG position next season. He started for only 16 games, and played pretty darn good from my memory. Be patient.
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Surely you jest.
 
What part of my previous post do you find laughable....
 
dalamon said:
What part of my previous post do you find laughable....
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"There really arent too many flaws to his game, good shooter..."

He's very flawed and isn't a good shooter as evidenced by his lifetime 44.1% from the field (which I would guess is average or slightly above average for a pg) and 30.5% from three which sucks.
 
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