Go Warren!

[Stoked]

Is that like saying there are not different degrees of heat, just different degrees of coldness?

lol

I don’t think there is any degree of acceptability for group based bigotry. You can try to slice that any way you wish. Group based bigotry should be opposed. Period.

 

[One Brow]

I feel I’m talking group based and you’re discussing it on a more individual level.

I would say bigotry against the wealthy as a group does them no harm, where bigotry against the individuals might. Is that what you meant?

I’ve stated before that not all people or opinions are worth respecting. In that sense we agree. But mine isn’t based on any pain it might cause.

I don't think any (for example) anti-Christian bigotry should be adopted for the purpose of causing pain, just that causing pain is not a reason to avoid adopting it.

 

[Rubashov]

I disagree. Bigotry isn’t ok. Period.

is some bigotry worse than others? Sure, but there’s no degree of acceptability. degrees of unacceptably, I’ll give you that.

Whoa!!!! ****ing hang on there champ! What about gingers?

Completely acceptable, look at that fugly thing.

 

[Stoked]

Whoa!!!! ****ing hang on there champ! What about gingers?

Completely acceptable, look at that fugly thing.

I concede the point

 

[Stoked]

I would say bigotry against the wealthy as a group does them no harm, where bigotry against the individuals might. Is that what you meant?



I don't think any (for example) anti-Christian bigotry should be adopted for the purpose of causing pain, just that causing pain is not a reason to avoid adopting it.

being opposed does not mean bigotry. But if someone hates Christians across the board that’s idiotic.

plenty of space between passionate disagreement and hate.

 

[One Brow]

being opposed does not mean bigotry. But if someone hates Christians across the board that’s idiotic.

plenty of space between passionate disagreement and hate.

As I pointed out, at least for me, hate of the group is not hate of the individuals.

It's also context-specific. I hate the way Islam causes Muslims to behave in Pakistan, the way Judaism causes Jews to behave in Israel, the way Hinduism causes Hindus to behave in India, and the ways Christianity causes Christians to behave in the US. I don't hate the way Islam causes Muslims to behave in US, the way Judaism causes Jews to behave in Pakistan, the way Hinduism causes Hindus to behave in Israel, and the ways Christianity causes Christians to behave in India.

 

[Stoked]

As I pointed out, at least for me, hate of the group is not hate of the individuals.

It's also context-specific. I hate the way Islam causes Muslims to behave in Pakistan, the way Judaism causes Jews to behave in Israel, the way Hinduism causes Hindus to behave in India, and the ways Christianity causes Christians to behave in the US. I don't hate the way Islam causes Muslims to behave in US, the way Judaism causes Jews to behave in Pakistan, the way Hinduism causes Hindus to behave in Israel, and the ways Christianity causes Christians to behave in India.

I disagree strongly with your first sentence. To hate the group includes the individual. To deny that is self delusion.

also, all groups act ugly when in power. Want proof? I present you with 2019.

 

[One Brow]

I disagree strongly with your first sentence. To hate the group includes the individual. To deny that is self delusion.

Much like the individual is only a small part of a large group, any specific group membership is only a small part of an individual.

also, all groups act ugly when in power. Want proof? I present you with 2019.

Yes, that was my point.

 

[LogGrad98]

"There will be people hurt and offended by Warren's words regarding religion and men, are they not allowed to feel pain?"

Why should I care when those people have used religion and masculinity to cause pain on a grand level?

Why should I care when they perceive pain because they're called out for causing pain?

Why should I care when they feel pain because they can't cause pain?

I don't want anyone to feel pain. Like I said before, what's your personal code of ethics? Apparently, for you, I, for example, as a white male, somewhat religious, deserve to be caused pain because I'm in a position of privilege. Apparently I'm the entire problem so any pain I personally experience in such a regard is well-deserved. Right?

 

[LogGrad98]

Much like the individual is only a small part of a large group, any specific group membership is only a small part of an individual.



Yes, that was my point.

I think you are short-changing group membership. You think being part of the group is generally a big or small part of being, say, black. Or Mormon. Or Muslim. Or female. For most people these are self-defining group adherences, not some small part that can simply be turned off or ignored.

 

[One Brow]

I think you are short-changing group membership. You think being part of the group is generally a big or small part of being, say, black. Or Mormon. Or Muslim. Or female. For most people these are self-defining group adherences, not some small part that can simply be turned off or ignored.

I'm not sure what you mean by "turned off or ignored". There's a lot more to most women I know than being women, to most black people I know than being black, etc. I know you feel the same way.

Moreover, when your group identity is a majority identity or a culturally dominant identity, there is even less self-defining group adherence to having membership in it for the individual. There's less about me being a man/white that ties my experiences to other men/white people than there is for a woman/black person, AFAICT. Since I'm talking about disliking groups with cultural hegemony, as opposed to disliking groups generally, making a comparison to groups lacking this hegemony is changing the context significantly.

 

[One Brow]

I don't want anyone to feel pain. Like I said before, what's your personal code of ethics? Apparently, for you, I, for example, as a white male, somewhat religious, deserve to be caused pain because I'm in a position of privilege. Apparently I'm the entire problem so any pain I personally experience in such a regard is well-deserved. Right?

The degree of pain you experience will be directly correlated to the degree you rely on your privilege and invest in it, when said privilege is diminished. Should we forbid gay marriages because it causes hypothetical you (not the real you, I'm aware) pain to see two men married?

 

[LogGrad98]

The degree of pain you experience will be directly correlated to the degree you rely on your privilege and invest in it, when said privilege is diminished. Should we forbid gay marriages because it causes hypothetical you (not the real you, I'm aware) pain to see two men married?

There is a difference, imo, between the hypothetical "pain" caused by something that doesn't directly affect an individual, such a allowing gay marriage, and that caused by directly attacking part of that individual's identity, such as denigrating someone's religion.

 

[One Brow]

There is a difference, imo, between the hypothetical "pain" caused by something that doesn't directly affect an individual, such a allowing gay marriage, and that caused by directly attacking part of that individual's identity, such as denigrating someone's religion.

You may see this distinction. Many people who think of gay marriage as an affront to God seem to miss this distinction. They see allowing gay marriage as an attack on them.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I don't want anyone to feel pain. Like I said before, what's your personal code of ethics? Apparently, for you, I, for example, as a white male, somewhat religious, deserve to be caused pain because I'm in a position of privilege. Apparently I'm the entire problem so any pain I personally experience in such a regard is well-deserved. Right?

World don't work that way.

You (we're talking the all encompassing you) caused people pain because of religious beliefs, easy example being the systemic discrimination and denial of certain rights (marital for one) of homosexual people. Calling you out and removing that systemic discrimination and denial of certain right on that is apparently painful for you (religious freedom)

Your code of ethics say that gay males deserve to be caused pain.

This is one example of many that can be brought up.

I, personally, will choose to not care if pain is caused an individual in the type of sense this thread has been going with if that pain is felt because that individual can't deny another individuals unalienable rights, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, which in the example I provided, would be systemic discrimination and denial of certain rights of homosexual people.