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Gobert and Favors in the Paint on O - How to Manage

ShortShorts

ShortShorts

Well-Known Member
First off the stats from this link at SBNation article here are unsourced and I actually question them a bit. Anyone know if there's a stat source with this type of info that's publicly available? Stats below:

Favors stats with and without Gobert this year:
[table="width:500"]
[tr]
[td]Per 48 minutes[/td]
[td]Points[/td]
[td]Rebounds[/td]
[td]Blocks[/td]
[td]Free throw attempts[/td]
[td]Field goal percentage[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Without Gobert[/td]
[td]29.5[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[td]4.2[/td]
[td]10.6[/td]
[td]53.2%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]With Gobert[/td]
[td]21.7[/td]
[td]11.8[/td]
[td]1.6[/td]
[td]5.6[/td]
[td]48.2%[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Although a nightmare for opponents on D together, when sharing the court we know there's a struggle for spacing on O. If these stats are valid, and they can be maintained, then Favors isn't just having a career year, when he has the paint to himself on O he's easily top 10 in the league as a two way player. I question the D stats as a bit of an unacheivable anomaly (he's still amazing just not that amazing ;-) ) however, the offense is believable - he simply rocks in the paint on his own.

I'm sure the staff is studying advanced stats like crazy to assess these situations. How do we optimize the O of Favors while maintaining the world beating of Gobert's D? If those stats are real the impact to Favors paint game is HUGE.

I'll really be interested in the "new world" of NBA spacing how Quin figures out managing two of the leagues best big men. Do we go 30-32 total each with only 10 minutes shared? Use a three wing lineup for the non-shared minutes? Feel fine playing them together for the majority of their time because the D benefit outweighs the O detriment? Even possibly consider trading one or the other (HUGE CRINGE) to maximize potential? If Gobert can develop just a tiny bit more back to the basket game, he's a decent enough passer that the short-elbow for Favors is much more attractive. How does this play out best for the Jazz over this and following seasons?
 
I think they gotta play a lot together still and just sacrifice the offense. As long as it keeps working of course. If we can just have the success from last year, I think that works.

I think that they need to find a way to include Rudy in the offense more. I know he's a little clumsy, but he isn't completely incompetent. We just don't have great passers. If Chris Paul was the point guard, I bet Rudy would get a lot of lobs and other opportunities and would probably convert on them.

I get tired of the team playing around Rudy. Doing that is problematic. Just work out the kinks with him now when it would be a lot easier to write off this season. Don't wait. We don't want this same problem in 2-3-4 years. I think the longer we wait to get him going the worse it is for us.
 
ShortShorts said:
First off the stats from this link at SBNation article here are unsourced and I actually question them a bit. Anyone know if there's a stat source with this type of info that's publicly available? Stats below:

Favors stats with and without Gobert this year:
[table="width:500"]
[tr]
[td]Per 48 minutes[/td]
[td]Points[/td]
[td]Rebounds[/td]
[td]Blocks[/td]
[td]Free throw attempts[/td]
[td]Field goal percentage[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Without Gobert[/td]
[td]29.5[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[td]4.2[/td]
[td]10.6[/td]
[td]53.2%[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]With Gobert[/td]
[td]21.7[/td]
[td]11.8[/td]
[td]1.6[/td]
[td]5.6[/td]
[td]48.2%[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Although a nightmare for opponents on D together, when sharing the court we know there's a struggle for spacing on O. If these stats are valid, and they can be maintained, then Favors isn't just having a career year, when he has the paint to himself on O he's easily top 10 in the league as a two way player. I question the D stats as a bit of an unacheivable anomaly (he's still amazing just not that amazing ;-) ) however, the offense is believable - he simply rocks in the paint on his own.

I'm sure the staff is studying advanced stats like crazy to assess these situations. How do we optimize the O of Favors while maintaining the world beating of Gobert's D? If those stats are real the impact to Favors paint game is HUGE.

I'll really be interested in the "new world" of NBA spacing how Quin figures out managing two of the leagues best big men. Do we go 30-32 total each with only 10 minutes shared? Use a three wing lineup for the non-shared minutes? Feel fine playing them together for the majority of their time because the D benefit outweighs the O detriment? Even possibly consider trading one or the other (HUGE CRINGE) to maximize potential? If Gobert can develop just a tiny bit more back to the basket game, he's a decent enough passer that the short-elbow for Favors is much more attractive. How does this play out best for the Jazz over this and following seasons?
Click to expand...

At the beginning of the Rudy-Favors experiment I took it for granted that Q would always have one of them in the game. I still think that should happen. It also seems pretty obvious that a small-ball lineup surrounding them (when just one is playing) will produce the most productive combinations. Pleiss is sucking way harder than I expected, and Booker and Lyles have been ****tier than expected, too.
 
Hack said:
I think they gotta play a lot together still and just sacrifice the offense. As long as it keeps working of course. If we can just have the success from last year, I think that works.

I think that they need to find a way to include Rudy in the offense more. I know he's a little clumsy, but he isn't completely incompetent. We just don't have great passers. If Chris Paul was the point guard, I bet Rudy would get a lot of lobs and other opportunities and would probably convert on them.

I get tired of the team playing around Rudy. Doing that is problematic. Just work out the kinks with him now when it would be a lot easier to write off this season. Don't wait. We don't want this same problem in 2-3-4 years. I think the longer we wait to get him going the worse it is for us.
Click to expand...

Well said, I think Rudy can improve as well . . . just get a 2 moves like a simple jump hook and an over under or something similar. There have even been a few times where Gobert really has shown some 8 foot spin/jab drives that were amazing as well (that spin reverse dunk last year comes to mind and the free throw line 2 step hammer at the end of the season as well), as in scary amazing. That would help a lot. That said, I still do wonder if we do more to find time to separate the two more often if it will be to our benefit i.e. give Favors more freedom, bolster bench D by having fewer times where neither of those rim protectors are in. Maybe just open and close with the 2?
 
I have more faith in Rudy developing a 10-15 foot shot than a post up game.

He has terrible balance in the post.
 
I don't think you drop them down in minutes. There is a huge dropoff from Gobert/Favors to any of Withey/Lyles/Booker. Just have to be patient, Favors mid range jump shot shot is coming around:

10-16 feet
2013: 37%
2014: 40.1%
2015: 47.6%

So 47.6% is a viable offensive option and you let Rudy crash the boards on offense. I would run less pick and rolls with Rudy they don't seem to accomplish much and are a high threat for offensive fouls and turnovers. Let Rudy be a garbage man.
 
Their defense far outweighs the offensive woes. But it's true that Favors is a legitimate offensive option now and we need to find a way to allow him to blossom with Gobert still on the court. The simple answer is that Gobert has to become more of an offensive threat himself. I was hoping he'd show the beginnings of a mid range jumper this year, but I have yet to see it.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk
 
I think it's too early to know much. Cliche I know. It feels like our defense is not as suffocating as post asb last year. I checked and we allowed 100+ pts 6 times in that stretch. This year we have already allowed 100+ in 3 games. All losses. We were 93.2 pts per 100, 95.6 this year. Given our dropoff of 3pt defending, I think we miss Dante more that I ever imagined. Who knew that defense would be what emerged as Dante's greatest asset (early on).

My theory is that we are great because of defense, and we would do best to play to that strength--keep Gobert and Favs together. If we keep the high scoring games down, I feel we have a better chance with our less than consistent offense.
 
I'd see what it would take to move up to get Ben Simmons and would consider trading Gobert as part of that.

Random thought. But I would. A couple 1sts, a few 2nds. Gobert. Another player or two.
 
Individual stats don't mean much if the team loses the game. If those stats are based on this year, then they will be skewed when Rudy missed those 2 games, which ended up as a loss.
 
King Cy said:
I have more faith in Rudy developing a 10-15 foot shot than a post up game.

He has terrible balance in the post.
Click to expand...

Strengths seems to be the biggest issue. The way he has a hard time keeping the ball in the paint, getting stripped to ofen, the way he struggles to push through defenders on the way to the rim, etc.. I mean that's the difference between an ox like Drummond and a pterodactyl like Gobert right now.
 
vegas said:
I think it's too early to know much. Cliche I know. It feels like our defense is not as suffocating as post asb last year. I checked and we allowed 100+ pts 6 times in that stretch. This year we have already allowed 100+ in 3 games. All losses. We were 93.2 pts per 100, 95.6 this year. Given our dropoff of 3pt defending, I think we miss Dante more that I ever imagined. Who knew that defense would be what emerged as Dante's greatest asset (early on).

My theory is that we are great because of defense, and we would do best to play to that strength--keep Gobert and Favs together. If we keep the high scoring games down, I feel we have a better chance with our less than consistent offense.
Click to expand...

1-5 is the spine of the defense, when you start each defensive possession making it hard for the PG to see his teammates, to find lanes to move or pass the ball into, when you start that possession by making the offense lose 8 seconds or so before getting close to being set, it makes everything easier, they will have less time to destabilise the defense, to make that extra pass and eventually they might have to rush an attack towards the rim for an illbalanced mid range shot or a swatted layup attempt.

Gobert/Favors are still great on D, but Exum putting the offense "late" early helps a lot.
 
Considering this, and that every big behind them on the depth chart is a scrub, it seems obvious that their minutes should be as staggered as possible, and Ingles should be playing minutes at the 4 to at least provide spacing for whoever.

In other words, what NAOS said.
 
Thinking on the fly so I'm just gonna put this out there. Maybe CQ can install an offense with progression so they can play together. It's not like D Fave is shooting zero percent above the foul line.
 
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