Gordon Hayward: Underdeveloped = Underrated

[gregbroncs]

Hayward readily took a lot of long twos last season as asked. I suppose you can look at plenty of those shots and label him "scared", but who wouldn't want him to hesitate taking bad shots?

Hayward is receiving way too much **** for being purposefully put in a bad role.

So you defend Corbin all season for his brilliance. And now you condemn him for the way he used Hayward?
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Off topic I just noticed that swear words show up when I quote somebody who used them. Sorry. It was just interesting to me.

 

[franklin]

What role can he fill that's worthy of anything close to max money?

I don't see value in Hayward at anywhere close to what the Jazz allegedly offered him last summer, let alone these Cle rumors. He's an absolute stud as a fourth option, waste of money as a third (thinking Wade or Bosh as a third and putting Hayward in their category is such a reach I cannot understand why anyone would want to bank on it).

 

[Litany]

What role can he fill that's worthy of anything close to max money?

Before rounding out a roster with role players, teams need scorers/creators, shooters/floor spacers and defensive stoppers/rim protectors. Gordo doesn't adequately fill any of those roles. Once you have players filling those roles, shooters or defenders give you more with their one skill than Gordo gives you with his little bit of everything.

Would you mind sending this info to the Jazz and Locke. This makes too much damn sense.

 

[Stifle Tower]

IF he becomes an all-star. I guess DL should have lost his job because he let Millsap go and he became an all-star.

With Millsap would the Jazz have gotten the #5 pick? Would they have even gotten a top-10 pick?
Millsap was let go because Lindsey argued for - and won - the debate that the team still needed to rebuild and THIS was the year they MIGHT be able to get a franchise player. And c'mon, be real about the all-star appearance. Had Millsap put up those same numbers in the WC would he have gotten in over Durant, Griffin, Love, Aldridge or Nowitzki?

 

[GVC]

With Millsap would the Jazz have gotten the #5 pick? Would they have even gotten a top-10 pick?
Millsap was let go because Lindsey argued for - and won - the debate that the team still needed to rebuild and THIS was the year they MIGHT be able to get a franchise player. And c'mon, be real about the all-star appearance. Had Millsap put up those same numbers in the WC would he have gotten in over Durant, Griffin, Love, Aldridge or Nowitzki?

So...

Losing Millsap made a big enough difference to put the Jazz into position for a top pick in the draft, so the Jazz didn't step up to the plate to match a very reasonable deal.

Losing Hayward won't make as big a difference in draft positioning (?), so the Jazz should sign him to a max contract?

Am I understanding this argument correctly? Do the Jazz have enough assets/talent to stop rebuilding?

 

[Stifle Tower]

The point had nothing to do with whether Millsap or AL were all-star. Core4 made a statement that DL should be fired if he lets Hayward walk and he becomes an All-star. This is Core4's main argument for paying hayward.. What IF he does this....? I wasn't being sarcastic so much I was pointing out the fact that the world isn't going to end if Hayward becomes an All-star making MAX money in the Eastern Conference. Millsap was my example.

Where did I say he SHOULD be fired if he let's Hayward go? I predicted he WOULD be fired. That's the nature of the business. Someone has to be the scapegoat and the same fans that are blasting DL now for even considering matching a MAX offer for Hayward would be the first ones with the torches and pitchforks if Hayward DOES become an all-star in Cleveland. After all, don't we need all-stars and franchise players instead of more "good" players.

I can't believe you guys are so BLINDED by your hatred of Gordon to see that this situation is COMPLETELY different from letting Jefferson and Millsap go. The 2014 draft was viewed as EPIC! It was a once in a decade shot at getting an all-star, if not a franchise player all the way down to the top-10.


Do the Jazz with any combination of Jefferson, Millsap, Carroll and Foye finish with fewer than 40 wins? They're likely fighting for a playoff spot and our pick is in the 12-14 range. Does having those salaries on the books allow Utah to shop their cap space and pick up additional assets? Does having those salaries on the books this off-season allow the Jazz to give a raise to Hayward and still have a MAX slot available to use as they see fit?

For the record, I DON'T think Hayward deserves $14.8M. But the payroll gets spent this year and next regardless, either in player salaries or a bonus distribution up to the floor amount. And this ISN'T an AK situation. Even at the MAX, Hayward's contract is smaller in each season than AK's final four years and a much smaller percentage of the cap.

Retaining Corbin as the coach last season, IMO, meant a few more losses. But the offense and defense were horrible. Hayward ain't Lebron or Kobe; we know that. But take away last year's debacle (and I do that for everyone) and Hayward is a 45%/40% player. Heck, even throw in last season. He averaged 16/5/5. How many others in the league did that? Take away some of the ball handling and his efficiency will increase. Assists may drop a little, but he's EASILY capable of 20/5/4 just by returning to his historic shooting percentages. Also factor in an offense better suited to his skills; you know, one in which the Jazz actually push the ball a bit. Last season was like watching a funeral procession.

 

[Litany]

So...

Losing Millsap made a big enough difference to put the Jazz into position for a top pick in the draft, so the Jazz didn't step up to the plate to match a very reasonable deal.

Losing Hayward won't make as big a difference in draft positioning (?), so the Jazz should sign him to a max contract?

Am I understanding this argument correctly? Do the Jazz have enough assets/talent to stop rebuilding?

I think your heads in the right place. If he gets a max offer sheet, we let him go. Either way we tank it hard one more year then start working on winning.

 

[GVC]

Take away some of the ball handling and his efficiency will increase. Assists may drop a little, but he's EASILY capable of 20/5/4 just by returning to his historic shooting percentages. Also factor in an offense better suited to his skills; you know, one in which the Jazz actually push the ball a bit. Last season was like watching a funeral procession.

1. So...if Gordo is used as a spot-up shooter, he'll be more efficient? Great...an average spot-up shooter and defender for the Max!

2. Gordo was part of the problem pushing the ball last year. He was far too busy hanging back, trying to pad his rebounding numbers to get out in transition.

 

[Stifle Tower]

1. So...if Gordo is used as a spot-up shooter, he'll be more efficient? Great...an average spot-up shooter and defender for the Max!

2. Gordo was part of the problem pushing the ball last year. He was far too busy hanging back, trying to pad his rebounding numbers to get out in transition.

No, if Trey starts being a PG, Hayward can increase his efficiency. Does this Parsons guy that everyone has a woody for also act as Houston's play maker or do the Rockets actually have one of those point guard guys to handle the ball?

LOL on Hayward not pushing. Burke was the one using a walker on his way up the court. Whether that's on Trey or was Corbin's "slo-fense" is up for debate. It was unwatchable.

 

[GVC]

LOL on Hayward not pushing. Burke was the one using a walker on his way up the court. Whether that's on Trey or was Corbin's "slo-fense" is up for debate. It was unwatchable.

Hayward wasn't pushing last season; he hung back for rebounds a lot more. Corbin didn't keep him from getting out in transition in previous seasons, so it's hard to pin this on him.

That was one of three things that pissed me off about Gordo's play last season. The other two were never taking mid-/full-court heaves at the end of quarters, and sulking when he wasn't performing well individually. Gordo did a fair bit of stat padding last season. Came off as a selfish, me-first player.

 

[The Thriller]

There is a reason why the Jazz didn't up their offer. They don't think he is worth that type of money. You can never underestimate the stupidity of other franchises, that doesn't mean the Jazz should act irrationally. If you don't believe he is worth the MAX then you shouldn't sign him to the MAX. Again, Hayward is replaceable. He isn't Malone.

It is funny how much crap Karl got for wanting the MAX and now there are more Jazz fans advocating for Hayward? Interesting?

This. Rep

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

The thing that scares me about letting Gordon go is that we really don't know what he (or anyone on this team) could look like under better coaching. I know it's easy to pile on Corbin, but I don't think anyone on the team was buying what he wanted to do. Look what happened in Phoenix. Their entire roster is held in higher regard after Hornacek changed the culture and play style.

Most of us seem to be comfortable with Gordon making $10-12 mil a year. If he ends up at $14-15, that difference isn't going to put our flexibility in jeopardy. The cap is going to continue to rise each year, and the $15 he's making in 2017 isn't going to seem as bad, especially since he'll be in his prime.

 

[Litany]

Hayward wasn't pushing last season; he hung back for rebounds a lot more. Corbin didn't keep him from getting out in transition in previous seasons, so it's hard to pin this on him.

That was one of three things that pissed me off about Gordo's play last season. The other two were never taking mid-/full-court heaves at the end of quarters, and sulking when he wasn't performing well individually. Gordo did a fair bit of stat padding last season. Came off as a selfish, me-first player.

You sir, are on fire. Your opinion on this stuff is all spot on as far as im concerned. Take to twitter to spread the word? Can you also tell Locke so he knows how full of **** he is? Thanks. Jazz reporters and Locke are all blown away that we aren't on board with a Hayward max.


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[cowhide]

With Millsap would the Jazz have gotten the #5 pick? Would they have even gotten a top-10 pick?
Millsap was let go because Lindsey argued for - and won - the debate that the team still needed to rebuild and THIS was the year they MIGHT be able to get a franchise player. And c'mon, be real about the all-star appearance. Had Millsap put up those same numbers in the WC would he have gotten in over Durant, Griffin, Love, Aldridge or Nowitzki?

Millsap is at least the same level or better than Hayward. I don't even understand your point in the rest of your post.

I used Millsap as an example of the Jazz letting go a player who became an all-star which didn't lead to DL losing his job. Which is what you claimed should happen.

Now you are dissing the accomplishment because it was done in the eastern conference. If it is no big deal that Millsap made the All-star team then why are you so worried if Hayward makes it? Because IF he does wouldn't your marginalizing of the accomplishment be the same for Hayward?

 

[NUMBERICA]

He's played vastly more minutes than any other actual Jazz player on the team. He's had every opportunity to succeed.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Hayward wasn't pushing last season; he hung back for rebounds a lot more. Corbin didn't keep him from getting out in transition in previous seasons, so it's hard to pin this on him.

That was one of three things that pissed me off about Gordo's play last season. The other two were never taking mid-/full-court heaves at the end of quarters, and sulking when he wasn't performing well individually. Gordo did a fair bit of stat padding last season. Came off as a selfish, me-first player.

He's never had good body language, IMO. But last year was something else.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I don't see value in Hayward at anywhere close to what the Jazz allegedly offered him last summer, let alone these Cle rumors. He's an absolute stud as a fourth option, waste of money as a third (thinking Wade or Bosh as a third and putting Hayward in their category is such a reach I cannot understand why anyone would want to bank on it).

Thank you.

 

[NUMBERICA]

GVC is likely annoyed at how many notifications he gets from me liking all of his posts. But holy ****.

 

[NUMBERICA]

There's more than one way to handle a situation. West clearly wanted Hayward to turn around and start something. Delonte likely would have pushed back and then the two both get ejected. A win for West. Do you think LBJ is going to get ejected?

He'd get ejected for getting in West's face? Kid has probably never fought once in his life and doesn't know how to handle situations like that at all, and to use QSH-speak, he "clams up".

 

[akirac73]

GVC is likely annoyed at how many notifications he gets from me liking all of his posts. But holy ****.

GVC is on fire...completely owning this thread.