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Governor of Alabama wants to be your brother...by blurring the line

I have to admit, I'm not sure why you're still posting as though you're in a debate, kicky, since you've essentially conceded the basic point of (most? some? all?) of the posters arguing against you, which is that there is no way to establish that Mormonism is a requirement for state-wide office since voters in Utah haven't had the opportunity to prove otherwise.

I didn't get a particular thrill out of the Chloe Sevigny sub scout scene, but I liked it when those other polygamists came to their open house.
 
I have to admit, I'm not sure why you're still posting as though you're in a debate, kicky, since you've essentially conceded the basic point of (most? some? all?) of the posters arguing against you, which is that there is no way to establish that Mormonism is a requirement for state-wide office since voters in Utah haven't had the opportunity to prove otherwise.

I'm pretty sure I said I didn't know the record of non-Mormon candidates.

I'm also pretty sure I said that if there were no non-Mormon candidates in a state that has a sizable non-Mormon population that's evidence that you can't be viable unless you're Mormon.

I also stick by the basic evidentiary idea: They're all LDS for decades. The clearest proof it's not a de facto requirement would be for a non-Mormon to get elected. That hasn't happened. Surely you have to concede that the correlation is there and now we're just arguing correlation vs. causation.

Do I have comparative studies? No. There are no non-mormon incumbents. Comparison studies are impossible. I think it's clearly more than just chance and I think you all are bending over backwards to deny something that's both intuitive and supported by the decades-long electoral record.

I didn't get a particular thrill out of the Chloe Sevigny sub scout scene, but I liked it when those other polygamists came to their open house.

That was my least favorite scene. Thought it totally cut against the rest of the episode in which Bill had to finally admit he's a huge ****-up. Giving him some "I did good" pay-out lessened the impact and was cheap and cheesy sentimentalism.

Also, I love that they've officially jettisoned Teeny. Almost as funny as that time she was away at "sports camp" and then came back several episodes later as a different actress. I presume the only person more amused by this turn of events than I am is the actress who played Old Teeny.
 
Surely you have to concede that the correlation is there and now we're just arguing correlation vs. causation.

Of course, that's what I've been saying all along. It seems a little unfair to me that you automatically assume the worst of Utahns, when other assumptions could be fairly be made.

Teeny got short shrift. I thought she was going to be a teenage lesbian or a junior racketeer. On the other hand, there are too many characters on Big Love to give everybody regular shrift.
 
Of course, that's what I've been saying all along. It seems a little unfair to me that you automatically assume the worst of Utahns, when other assumptions could be fairly be made.

Well a) I'm an ******* and b) I guess I don't think that's "the worst."

Teeny got short shrift. I thought she was going to be a teenage lesbian or a junior racketeer.

I think you're forgetting the totally dropped storyline in which she was selling peeks at her stash of pornography to the local neighborhood boys. Man that could have gone places. All of them hilarious. We never even got to find out where she got the porn from.
 
Yeah, it's the first amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The term you're looking to debunk is one that had been floating around the lexicon of various political philosophers for a few hundred years but it usually is attributed to a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to someone. "Separation of church and state" is a summary of what the 1st amendment means, and if you read that little sentence, it's pretty plainly clear it means exactly that unless you're looking to split hairs or advised to by historical revisionists that cry on television and make $50 million a year.

But I'm curious, who wrote the 1st amendment and why would it matter what they individually would want to have done? Because they wrote it, they become king of the laws respecting it? That's besides that the constitution and the sections therein are written as a complete document from and by a lot of people and I very seriously doubt there is a single author to the 1st amendment.

Thomas Jefferson was writing a letter that had absolutely nothing to do with the first amendment.

Also, Thomas Jefferson was in France at the time the first amendment was made. So this separation of church and state is hardly debatable as the meaning of the first amendment as Thomas was on the other side of the world when it was written.

If the author meant to have separation of church and state, he would have written it so. If he really believed that religion needed to be out of the school system, then he wouldn't have said and believed that he felt the bible should be the principal book used in public schools.

The separation of church and state nonsense was created by activist judges who are basically making up their own constitution.

If people want to have their kids study at a school that is devoid of religion, then by all means go to one. Or begin one. That's what this country is all about.
 
When considering the constitution you have to take it in context. In the present day religion is put up as the enemy, a vile insidious force trying by every means possible to infiltrate out government, so obviously the founding fathers meant the first ammendment to be freedom FROM religion, at all costs, right?

Wrong.

When the first ammendment was written it was to address the very reason many of them had fled europe to come to america at that time, religious oppression. The inquisition was not so far removed that people had forgotten what it meant. Most every european nation had a national religion and if you did not adhere to that religion you were not allowed to practice religion at all, and if you did the punishment was often death. Good luck especially being muslim as the "heathens" were regularly put to death just because they were viewed as, well, heathens.

So the first ammendment was written to clarify what it meant to have inalienable rights. In other words to help remove ambiguity that one sentence may cause, after all inalienable rights could have different meanings to different people. And they wanted to ensure that the very oppression that spurred the founding of our nation was not duplicated here. So that line, which reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In this case "establishment" refers to creating a state-sponsored religion, where everyone is required to be a part of said religion. The government is prohibited from establishing a state-religion by official decree. The next section is pretty clear, the government is also required to allow anyone to practice any religion they choose to practice within the other laws of the country.

There is nothing in there about "separation of church and state". That is a modern interpretation to justify upholding the "freedom from religion" that is the mantra of today. As it is the job of the supreme court to interpret and enforce the constitution, then their rulings regarding this part of the first ammendment on modern issues has helped qualify this interpretation in the present day.

I for one do not believe the founding fathers intended that we cut all religion of any kind and any and all references to religion out of any kind of public discourse that involves in any way edifices, agents, employees, lawns, roadsides, etc. that might in some way be construed as to possibly hint at the goverment maybe allowing that discourse without immediately and totally squashing it, Hitler-style. I do not think they intended freedom FROM religion.

But no one can say for certain what the founding fathers intended since we can only read what they wrote and hope to understand it as they did. All we can do is to follow the precedents set by the supreme court and, if you don't like their rulings on the matter, vote for candidates who could help initiate a change. If enough people agree, then those candidates will be elected and the make-up of the supreme court may change and the new court may interpret the ammendement differently. That is the beauty of living in a democratic republic, we the people have a voice.

I just hope that our voice actually holds as much or more weight than the voices of the special interest groups. Sadly, all too often, money talks louder than votes. And loud minorities talk louder than silent majorities.
 
All I'm saying is that empirically you have to be Mormon to win the major state-wide elections. It's possible this is a case of correlation rather than causation. But without doing huge amounts of research and study, it certainly is easy to explain via causation.

Franklin, let's put it this way: I'll be movable on this issue when Utah actually elects a non-Mormon to one of these offices. Until then the evidence all goes one direction and we're just goofing around in the sandbox trying not to see something that's obvious.

Utah isn't really the place to elect the black guy just to give you proof, if you know what I mean.

I'm not saying your wrong, I just think you're overreacting based on too many personal assumptions/observations. I'd be more interested in an argument that gets into Utah's republican party power structure, and how all the big LDS money backs only Mormons in the primaries. That's a tale I'm more willing to listen through, as opposed to demonizing the entire citizenry. The majority of the vote is decided in the primary in Utah. If you don't win the primary then you don't have much of a shot. Last year Bridgewater challenged Mike Lee fairly well after the primary, but still lost out on election day.

From anecdotal evidence and intuition, I'd guess that a Mormon is much more likely to pull through the primaries because of the comfort factor--both being LDS (big name LDS goes a long ways here), and because there are some key phrases that the voters like to hear (Constitution hanging by a thread, save the constitution, C. Eager said 5000 year leap was her manual or something, and C. Skousen is worshiped here). However, I can also see a non-LDS who knows what the voters want winning a primary. I haven't seen one try, but I'm young.

I also have a theory about LDS producing a disproportionately large amount of successful people. This significantly raises the odds of seeing an LDS candidate.

And thanks for the history. I didn't have time to look it up yesterday. Very insightful.
 
Kicky, it's pretty simple. You brought Utah and Mormons into a conversation that they didn't belong in the first place. What did you expect from your "Utah and it's religious folk have no room to talk" statement? Your statement was based off of very poor reasoning.
 
Kicky, it's pretty simple. You brought Utah and Mormons into a conversation that they didn't belong in the first place. What did you expect from your "Utah and it's religious folk have no room to talk" statement? Your statement was based off of very poor reasoning.

I agree, as I have plenty of room to talk as a life-long atheist (2nd generation atheist) and a person who's family presence in Utah goes back to Brigham Young himself. I don't support actions such as the statement made by the Alabama Gov. and feel like I have every right to say so, regardless of where I live.

As an aside, the way Utah has been is no indication of what Utah will be. The ratio of LDS/non-LDS is getting smaller. The hold that the LDS church has on Utah's political system will carry a lot of momentum, but will not last forever.
 
Kicky, it's pretty simple. You brought Utah and Mormons into a conversation that they didn't belong in the first place. What did you expect from your "Utah and it's religious folk have no room to talk" statement? Your statement was based off of very poor reasoning.

Sometimes I feel like I'm peering through the looking glass.

But seriously, do you want to crudely photoshop something for me?
 
Sometimes I feel like I'm peering through the looking glass.

But seriously, do you want to crudely photoshop something for me?

Way to dodge the point and man up and say you're wrong, guy. Don't worry though, I forgive you. It's just the lawyer with in.

P.S. I don't have to photoshop anything on you. Any picture of you is hilarious/hideous as is.
 
Was that worth a comment? I'm up to 907.

BTW, a poker night with the misses would be cool, even though I was being an *** about it.
 
Thomas Jefferson was writing a letter that had absolutely nothing to do with the first amendment.

Also, Thomas Jefferson was in France at the time the first amendment was made. So this separation of church and state is hardly debatable as the meaning of the first amendment as Thomas was on the other side of the world when it was written.

If the author meant to have separation of church and state, he would have written it so. If he really believed that religion needed to be out of the school system, then he wouldn't have said and believed that he felt the bible should be the principal book used in public schools.

The separation of church and state nonsense was created by activist judges who are basically making up their own constitution.

If people want to have their kids study at a school that is devoid of religion, then by all means go to one. Or begin one. That's what this country is all about.

How much of your worldview is informed by political radio and/or KSL.com message boards? Serious question.
 
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I didn't expect this from you.

How much of your worldview is informed by political radio and/or KSL.com message boards? Serious question.

So seriously, you guys haven't figured out that when he writes these things he's being satirical?

It's not exactly the most brilliant satire in the world either. Blunt like a sledgehammer.

I guess this is more proof of Poe's law.
 
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