Gun Control

[Scat]

Interesting chart:

Who was it that was arguing with me that body parts, legs in particular don't kill?

 

[fishonjazz]

It's not really a complete thought unless we mention that 1 option in question hasn't historically been a problem.

Point is that it is better (maybe even by the tiniest amount) to give criminals less options to obtain guns.

 

[Gameface]

It wouldn't have helped in that particular shooting (unless her mom had bought the guns from a privat seller) but i think it could help to stop some crimes in the future.

I'm not seeing it.

I've sold several guns on KSL. For certain guns I would only sell to people with a concealed carry license. But I've also sold guns without checking ID at all.

On the other hand I've never bought a gun on KSL. I take good care of my guns and when I want a gun I want something in perfect condition.

The thing is, these guns are a tool. Maybe to you a tool of terror and destruction, but not to me. If I'm not interested in shooting a gun and maintaining a high level of familiarity with it I don't want it. I'm not a gun collector and I'm not interested in stockpiling weapons. So I figure pass it along to someone who has an interest in it.

If I was going to sell a gun today (and I was actually considering selling a few guns before all this went down, and planned on listing them on KSL) I would go to a pawn shop and get about half what I think I would get selling on KSL. So while in my opinion this moratorium on gun ads will accomplish nothing to stop gun violence it will lower the value of guns privately owned in Utah to the detriment of honest law abiding citizens, while raising the price of used guns for someone looking to buy. I don't expect you to have any compassion for us. But this hit that we're taking is to provide people with emotional relief and will not change reality one bit. Just like regulating types of ammo, amount of ammo a person can buy, or the size of ammo magazines. It changes nothing as far as gun violence, but does affect people's ability to enjoy shooting and therefore do it often and be well practiced in the use of the firearms they own.

Safety and competence is important to me. The effectiveness of my firearms in the event of a crisis is also important to me. It may seem like nothing to anti-gun folks to make it harder and more expensive to practice the proper use of the firearms I own, but it matters to me, a lot. I also don't want arbitrary regulations that don't do anything to stop crime to make my firearms less effective in an extreme situation.

I'm not paranoid. I don't sit with a gun in my lap licking my lips waiting for a perp to bust through my front door so I can put a notch in my holster for my first kill, but I've been in a situation where a tweaked-out meth-head has actually busted through my front door all freaked out after his meth lab blew up. I was 19 at the time and visiting my dad so we could watch a Jazz game. My father retrieved his handgun and had it in a holster on his hip in about 20 seconds. The tweaker, who claimed he had been attacked and that people were chasing him, noticed the firearm and became much more cooperative. I don't know what might have happened. Probably not much more. My father and I could have taken the guy, but he had just run from a blown up meth lab, then broken into an old woman's house and stolen her keys and taken her van on a wild ride through town before crashing it into a tree in my neighbors front yard. He was scared and desperate. But when he realized my father was armed he did what we told him and waited for the police to arrive. In that situation the gun was not just something made for killing. It was a tool that allowed my father to protect his family and control a situation without anyone getting hurt. Several minutes later the police and an ambulance arrived and the tweaker was taken to the hospital in handcuffs.

About ten years later, on Dec. 8th 2005 my father used that same handgun to shot himself in the head and end his life.

Anyway, I know first hand that guns can do good and they can do harm. We don't live in a perfect world. We're never going to. If you pull the covers over your head it doesn't protect you from evil. That's all these silly regulations are, just covers we're going to pull over our heads and hope the boogey man goes away.

 

[fishonjazz]

I will give a few scenarios to illustrate that how stopping private sales COULD decrease some crimes.

For example: Lets say hypothetically i just got out of prison after a 10 year sentence for armed robbery and i want to rob bank with a gun, but i dont know hardly any people around anymore since i have been in prison for the last 10 years.

Scenario #1- zero gun control laws: I walk to wallmart (theres one right by my house) buy a gun, and proceed to the bank and attempt the robbery.... Pretty damn easy. didn't even need a car in this case.

Scenario #2-Most stores require background checks but there are places such as ksl or gun shows that dont: I cant pass a background check so i cant buy at wallmart now. So I have to find a computer to get onto and go onto ksl and locate someone who will sell me a gun. I drive over to the gun owners house and buy the gun. Then proceed to the bank and attempt the robbery... still pretty easy but in this case there are a few more steps and now i have to drive so there is the added risk that i get pulled over after the gun purchase and get busted so i never get to rob the bank. Unlikely but possible.

Scenario #3- Can no longer buy from private dealers: Now i have basically 2 options. Option 1: i decide to steal a gun from someone. Now in this case there is a chance that a homeowner shoots me when i break into the home, or i steal the gun but it isn't loaded and i dont have bullets, or someone sees me breaking in and calls the cops and im busted. Lots of ways for this plan to fail, but still a decent chance that i aquire the gun without problem as well.
Option 2: buy from the black market. Now i have to find this black market and assuming i can find it, then i have to purchase the gun from a fellow criminal who may be a bad guy who decides to rob me when i show up to buy, or maybe he shoots me and takes my money. Now there is still a decent chance that i come away with a gun and rob the bank.

So scenario 1 was the easiest scenario for me. No problem piece of cake, the bank gets robbed.

Scenario 2 was still pretty damn easy but not as easy as scenario 1. (i needed a car, and internet access, but still quite easy)

Scenario 3 was still not extremely hard, but definately had the most risk/danger involved.

For sure criminals will always be able to get thier hands on guns, but it seems like a good idea to make it more difficult for them to do so because some of the time, some of them will fail due to the extra difficulties involved with scenario 3

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm not seeing it.

I've sold several guns on KSL. For certain guns I would only sell to people with a concealed carry license. But I've also sold guns without checking ID at all.

On the other hand I've never bought a gun on KSL. I take good care of my guns and when I want a gun I want something in perfect condition.

The thing is, these guns are a tool. Maybe to you a tool of terror and destruction, but not to me. If I'm not interested in shooting a gun and maintaining a high level of familiarity with it I don't want it. I'm not a gun collector and I'm not interested in stockpiling weapons. So I figure pass it along to someone who has an interest in it.

If I was going to sell a gun today (and I was actually considering selling a few guns before all this went down, and planned on listing them on KSL) I would go to a pawn shop and get about half what I think I would get selling on KSL. So while in my opinion this moratorium on gun ads will accomplish nothing to stop gun violence it will lower the value of guns privately owned in Utah to the detriment of honest law abiding citizens, while raising the price of used guns for someone looking to buy. I don't expect you to have any compassion for us. But this hit that we're taking is to provide people with emotional relief and will not change reality one bit. Just like regulating types of ammo, amount of ammo a person can buy, or the size of ammo magazines. It changes nothing as far as gun violence, but does affect people's ability to enjoy shooting and therefore do it often and be well practiced in the use of the firearms they own.

Safety and competence is important to me. The effectiveness of my firearms in the event of a crisis is also important to me. It may seem like nothing to anti-gun folks to make it harder and more expensive to practice the proper use of the firearms I own, but it matters to me, a lot. I also don't want arbitrary regulations that don't do anything to stop crime to make my firearms less effective in an extreme situation.

I'm not paranoid. I don't sit with a gun in my lap licking my lips waiting for a perp to bust through my front door so I can put a notch in my holster for my first kill, but I've been in a situation where a tweaked-out meth-head has actually busted through my front door all freaked out after his meth lab blew up. I was 19 at the time and visiting my dad so we could watch a Jazz game. My father retrieved his handgun and had it in a holster on his hip in about 20 seconds. The tweaker, who claimed he had been attacked and that people were chasing him, noticed the firearm and became much more cooperative. I don't know what might have happened. Probably not much more. My father and I could have taken the guy, but he had just run from a blown up meth lab, then broken into an old woman's house and stolen her keys and taken her van on a wild ride through town before crashing it into a tree in my neighbors front yard. He was scared and desperate. But when he realized my father was armed he did what we told him and waited for the police to arrive. In that situation the gun was not just something made for killing. It was a tool that allowed my father to protect his family and control a situation without anyone getting hurt. Several minutes later the police and an ambulance arrived and the tweaker was taken to the hospital in handcuffs.

About ten years later, on Dec. 8th 2005 my father used that same handgun to shot himself in the head and end his life.

Anyway, I know first hand that guns can do good and they can do harm. We don't live in a perfect world. We're never going to. If you pull the covers over your head it doesn't protect you from evil. That's all these silly regulations are, just covers we're going to pull over our heads and hope the boogey man goes away.

I agree with alot of what you say here and i own a couple of guns myself so its not like im against gun owners, or anti gun.
Im someone who is pro-guns and pro-gun control...... you seem to think that gun control makes no difference whatsoever in a criminals ability to obtain a gun. But if you look at the scenarios i laid out in my previous post then you would see that in that particular case the gun control would make it more difficult for the criminals.... not impossible but more difficult.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't see what good adding more regulations to private sales will do. Let's not get carried away, this nutjob didn't buy his guns off ksl or a gun show. He stole them from his mom.

I this case if his mom had her guns locked up then this particular situation would have changed a little... maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, or maybe the same amount of kids and adults would have been killed but it would have been different in some manner.
Maybe he is unable to obtain his moms guns so he goes elsewhere to get guns and on the way he gets hit by a bus and dies.
Maybe he get some different guns from someone else but they are less effective guns and there ends up being less casualties.
Maybe he gets different guns and they jam up when he tries to use them and no one dies.
Maybe he decides to not use a gun at all and makes a bomb and there are more casualties.

 

[reignman40]

I will give a few scenarios to illustrate that how stopping private sales COULD decrease some crimes.

For example: Lets say hypothetically i just got out of prison after a 10 year sentence for armed robbery and i want to rob bank with a gun, but i dont know hardly any people around anymore since i have been in prison for the last 10 years.

Scenario #1- zero gun control laws: I walk to wallmart (theres one right by my house) buy a gun, and proceed to the bank and attempt the robbery.... Pretty damn easy. didn't even need a car in this case.

Scenario #2-Most stores require background checks but there are places such as ksl or gun shows that dont: I cant pass a background check so i cant buy at wallmart now. So I have to find a computer to get onto and go onto ksl and locate someone who will sell me a gun. I drive over to the gun owners house and buy the gun. Then proceed to the bank and attempt the robbery... still pretty easy but in this case there are a few more steps and now i have to drive so there is the added risk that i get pulled over after the gun purchase and get busted so i never get to rob the bank. Unlikely but possible.

Scenario #3- Can no longer buy from private dealers: Now i have basically 2 options. Option 1: i decide to steal a gun from someone. Now in this case there is a chance that a homeowner shoots me when i break into the home, or i steal the gun but it isn't loaded and i dont have bullets, or someone sees me breaking in and calls the cops and im busted. Lots of ways for this plan to fail, but still a decent chance that i aquire the gun without problem as well.
Option 2: buy from the black market. Now i have to find this black market and assuming i can find it, then i have to purchase the gun from a fellow criminal who may be a bad guy who decides to rob me when i show up to buy, or maybe he shoots me and takes my money. Now there is still a decent chance that i come away with a gun and rob the bank.

So scenario 1 was the easiest scenario for me. No problem piece of cake, the bank gets robbed.

Scenario 2 was still pretty damn easy but not as easy as scenario 1. (i needed a car, and internet access, but still quite easy)

Scenario 3 was still not extremely hard, but definately had the most risk/danger involved.

For sure criminals will always be able to get thier hands on guns, but it seems like a good idea to make it more difficult for them to do so because some of the time, some of them will fail due to the extra difficulties involved with scenario 3

You don't think in that 10 years you would know people that got out before you that you could track down and easily hook you up with a gun? Same way they get drugs or whatever they want when they get out.

 

[fishonjazz]

You don't think in that 10 years you would know people that got out before you that you could track down and easily hook you up with a gun? Same way they get drugs or whatever they want when they get out.

Maybe i would, maybe not.... even if i did know someone, i would have to track them down and there would be more of a risk than just going to a wallmart or ksl to buy it.

Like i said.... there is now way to really stop a criminal from getting a gun, but there are laws that could slow them down or make it a little harder for them.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Maybe i would, maybe not.... even if i did know someone, i would have to track them down and there would be more of a risk than just going to a wallmart or ksl to buy it.

Like i said.... there is now way to really stop a criminal from getting a gun, but there are laws that could slow them down or make it a little harder for them.

So, in your mind, a criminal is taking more if a risk buying a gun off the black market, than he is by trying to get it at walmart?

You know it's a federal crime for convicted felons to possess a gun, right?

I can assure you, someone who just got out of prison is much more likely to get a gun off the black market than they are from walmart, ksl, or any other legal seller.

After 10 years in prison you would know lots of people selling whatever you wanted.

By the way, most bank robbers use a note, not a gun.

 

[fishonjazz]

So, in your mind, a criminal is taking more if a risk buying a gun off the black market, than he is by trying to get it at walmart?

You know it's a federal crime for convicted felons to possess a gun, right?

I can assure you, someone who just got out of prison is much more likely to get a gun off the black market than they are from walmart, ksl, or any other legal seller.

After 10 years in prison you would know lots of people selling whatever you wanted.

By the way, most bank robbers use a note, not a gun.

If its a federal crime for them to possess a gun then they would be committing the same crime whether they get it from wallmart or the "black market".

I just think its a good idea to make it as difficult as possible for criminals to get guns.. As it stands right now criminals have a bunch of options when it comes to getting guns. If the legislation passes making it illegal for guns to be sold on ksl type websites and gun shows, then they now have 1 less option than they did before. Agree to disagree i guess.

 

[SaltyDawg]

If its a federal crime for them to possess a gun then they would be committing the same crime whether they get it from wallmart or the "black market".

I just think its a good idea to make it as difficult as possible for criminals to get guns.. As it stands right now criminals have a bunch of options when it comes to getting guns. If the legislation passes making it illegal for guns to be sold on ksl type websites and gun shows, then they now have 1 less option than they did before. Agree to disagree i guess.

The problem is it would also make it harder for the law abiding citizens to buy or sell their guns.

And I'm pretty sure criminals aren't really worried about the black market sellers turning them in for attempting to buy a gun, like they would be at walmart.

 

[fishonjazz]

The problem is it would also make it harder for the law abiding citizens to buy or sell their guns.

And I'm pretty sure criminals aren't really worried about the black market sellers turning them in for attempting to buy a gun, like they would be at walmart.

In my scenario about a felon buying from wallmart there were no background checks so the wallmart employee would not even know the guy was a felon.

To recap: Scenario #1 was buying a gun with NO gun control at all (no background checks or anything)

Scenario #2 was like the law is right now.

Scenario #3 was like it would be if there was no longer private sellers.

So when you say "I'm pretty sure criminals aren't really worried about the black market sellers turning them in for attempting to buy a gun, like they would be at walmart", that would not apply currently because no felon would try to buy a gun from wallmart currently due to the gun control that is already in place... which is another example of a form of gun control at work.

 

[fishonjazz]

The problem is it would also make it harder for the law abiding citizens to buy or sell their guns.

And I'm pretty sure criminals aren't really worried about the black market sellers turning them in for attempting to buy a gun, like they would be at walmart.

I agree that it would suck that law abiding citizens wouldn't be able to buy from private sellers anymore.... but sometimes there has to be some sacrifice in order for change to work. Plus law abiding citizens would still be able to purchase guns from gun stores and wallmarts and all the other public places that sell guns.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think i have discussed this topic about all that i care for so im gonna be done with it finally and stop annoying people (as im sure that i am).
Thanks for chatting with me about it bronco, gameface, salty and others. I appreciate the info and opinions.

Just 1 last thing: Why do we assume that criminals can get guns so easily through the "black market"? Do you just go stand on a corner in downtown salt lake and wait until you see someone with tats and leather (like on sons of anarchy) and then ask them for a gun. And they just take to some warehouse were the deal goes down?
How exactly do you go shopping at this "black market"? Would it be easier to find this black market in a big city like chicago, L.A., or new york?
What if you were a convict living in a small town in the middle of nowhere with a population of 5000 people? Would there be a black market in a town like that or would you have to drive a long distance to a large metropolis?

Im out of this thread! phew

 

[SaltyDawg]

I think i have discussed this topic about all that i care for so im gonna be done with it finally and stop annoying people (as im sure that i am).
Thanks for chatting with me about it bronco, gameface, salty and others. I appreciate the info and opinions.

Just 1 last thing: Why do we assume that criminals can get guns so easily through the "black market"? Do you just go stand on a corner in downtown salt lake and wait until you see someone with tats and leather (like on sons of anarchy) and then ask them for a gun. And they just take to some warehouse were the deal goes down?
How exactly do you go shopping at this "black market"? Would it be easier to find this black market in a big city like chicago, L.A., or new york?
What if you were a convict living in a small town in the middle of nowhere with a population of 5000 people? Would there be a black market in a town like that or would you have to drive a long distance to a large metropolis?

Im out of this thread! phew

You wouldn't stand on a corner asking strangers, that would probably be a bad idea. Instead, you'd ask the person who sells weed. They may not sell illegitimate guns, but they probably know someone who does.

 

[One Brow]

Ugh.. put gunpowder in a closed common household container, light fuse and throw.... Yeah real hard.

If I had to classify that, I would call it a "gernade" before I called it a bomb. Certainly, when people discussing bombings and the like, they're not referring to thrown objects.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The problem is it would also make it harder for the law abiding citizens to buy or sell their guns.

Boo hoo?

 

[NUMBERICA]

The idea that a person needs to pass more hurdles to own and operate a vehicle than own trigger operated lethal force is a completely insane one.

 

[Scat]

The idea that a person needs to pass more hurdles to own and operate a vehicle than own trigger operated lethal force is a completely insane one.

Driving is a privilege. Owning a gun is a constitutional right.

 

[babe]

The idea that a person needs to pass more hurdles to own and operate a vehicle than own trigger operated lethal force is a completely insane one.

the idea that the state needs to regulate people's movements around the country is the completely insane one.

when there are 'accidents' or intentional automobile homicides, we do not have a tremendous chorus of societal change-agents or a virtually singular-voiced mass media calling for laws that effectively prevent ordinary people from owning automobiles, or regulating their purchase.

Although some liberal folks do howl about SUV's being too extravagant and wasteful of precious communal petroleum reserves. . . . . and yet some of the most vocal liberal advocates of "conservation" nevertheless use private jets to haul themselves and huge retinues of sycophants around to international or UN meetings, or around the country, to spread the moral superiority of their green consciences. . . . lol . . . . .

President Barack Obama's kids are attending schools which employ numerous armed guards, as do the children of many gun ban advocates, and yet they howl about how the rest of us don't deserve to similarly protect our own kids at schools.

It's the obvious intent to create a governing class of elites who have control of lethal force to use on lesser humans that is the telling point in this debate, and calling the lesser humans "insane" is practically calling for a political genocide sort of insanity in governance.

listening to the mass media howling for this power in the hands state management, and not believing the criminal intent to hijack our political process on the part of the elite state managers, is at this point true dishonesty. And the existence of that intent cannot be dismissed as mere insanity, or mocked as "conspiracy theory". It's so open and brazen it's beyond stupid rhetoric like that. The reason the right to keep and bear arms was made a personal right by the Constitution is just exactly because the colonial British government tried to disarm the people in America to enable their soldierly redcoat occupation force unopposed privilege over the Americans.

Disarmament of the disenfranchised, especially of a minority population segment, has always presaged genocide at the hands of governments gone wrong.

As I've said before, the problem of shooters taking control of a public place and gunning down whoever is there in our society today is the result not of political activism or class warfare, but is almost without exception perpetrated by kids or young adults in psychiatric care who have been treated with SRI or SSRI medications which are known to impair individual moral reasoning in some individuals, and is frequently associated with kids who also are fixated on video games which positively reinforce the shooters dissociation from normal life-valuing thinking.

We would actually reduce the problem by regulating professional psychiatric protocols for treating people with obvious tendencies in this direction, and maybe going back to more of a lock-up philosophy for the mentally disturbed.

Despite our great societal expenditure for treating psychiatric patients, we have many months, even years of delays in getting professional attention for them. . . . and under Obamacare, these delays will be increased, not decreased.

putting responsible and trusted armed personnel on site to protect kids is actually the rational and cost-effective deterrent we need. Our kids need protection just like Obama's kids do.