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Have people given up on Big Al?

Zerol said:
Still having ways to go, he actually improved on passing out of the double team close to the end of the year. Before Hayward got consistent minutes, no one was cutting to the basket after making the entry pass. Al was always forced into rolling to the basket after the pick (which he also started to improve before Deron's departure) instead of being in his sweet spot. Now if we can add some real shooters who can slash to the team rather than just some pretend outside shooters like we did last year, I expect a lot of passing out of double team from Big Al.
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Yes, passing out of the double team is my #1 complaint about Big Al as well. I'm willing to give him one more season... if he can learn to do that he's a keeper. If not, well then hopefully we can trade him to someone next off season.
 
colton said:
Yes, passing out of the double team is my #1 complaint about Big Al as well. I'm willing to give him one more season... if he can learn to do that he's a keeper. If not, well then hopefully we can trade him to someone next off season.
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A agree with the one more year rule. As many have noted, he did not start well due to injury recovery or lazy summer, but the rumor(?) is that he's with mansap working hard this summer. Secondly the "pass out of the post" issue is very blurry for me. While it is clear that he didn't pass out much, i'm unclear as to why. At one point, with Sloan at the helm, AK NEVER moved without the ball and especially when Big Al had the ball. Later, with Corbin at the helm, AK came alive and was cutting. So i think there was some serious discombobulation going on that impacted Big Al and he reverted/maintained his "i'm just gonna shoot it when i touch it." So with a fresh start, and a capable big-man running mate (Favors) i think there is reason for optimism.

I'm not ready to blame the Minnesota track record on AJ as Numberica is. It COULD be true, but it could be that Minny is just that messed up and AJ needs to learn how to play in a system. If this is the case, it will be evident after next year.
 
Harcher said:
I'm not ready to blame the Minnesota track record on AJ as Numberica is. It COULD be true, but it could be that Minny is just that messed up and AJ needs to learn how to play in a system. If this is the case, it will be evident after next year.
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My point is less Minnesota, and more Boston and Utah.
 
Low-post play is unbelievably overrated. When you're paying a guy more than anyone else to do it in its basest form (meaning, without the accompanying skills that can make it effective), you're being foolhardy.

I don't think most people have given up on the guy, and I guess I can't say I have either since I never believed in him.
 
NUMBERICA said:
My point is less Minnesota, and more Boston and Utah.
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I don't have any recollection on Boston.
It's clear you can't win if one guy has the ball and 4 guys stand around, which is ALOT of what happened. The question is if that is singularly the fault of AJ? I don't think it was at Utah. It was partly the situation/system.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Low-post play is unbelievably overrated. When you're paying a guy more than anyone else to do it in its basest form (meaning, without the accompanying skills that can make it effective), you're being foolhardy.

I don't think most people have given up on the guy, and I guess I can't say I have either since I never believed in him.
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Low post play is overrated? Are you kidding?
 
Harcher said:
I don't have any recollection on Boston.
It's clear you can't win if one guy has the ball and 4 guys stand around, which is ALOT of what happened. The question is if that is singularly the fault of AJ? I don't think it was at Utah. It was partly the situation/system.
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Why is it the fault of the system that wins, and not the player that loses? You can point to a lot of reasons the Jazz were worse this year, but the only one that is CLEARLY evident was that the big that the Jazz wished they could run everything through had no ****ing clue what he was doing. There were a lot of reasons Deron grew less and less patient, but one of the biggest was that he quickly discovered his Robin was a slothful dope that couldn't finish anything another person started or help anyone else because of the attention he drew. Boozer's a turd, but I think Deron quickly grew to miss playing with someone that could give as much as he was given (offensively, anyway). Millsap was the closest thing to an actual co-pilot on this team, and now everyone wants to trade him off of the singular notion that he's too short. Holy ****ing Toledo.
 
billyshelby said:
Boston doesn't count. His rookie year he barely played. His 2nd year he played 18 minutes on a team that won 33 games. His 3rd year he started for a team that won 24 games. Those teams sucked.
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And his rookie year, the Celtics went to the playoffs. He played more the next year, they won less. He played a lot more the next year, and they managed to win even less than that. I know correlation does not necessarily show cause here but...
 
billyshelby said:
Low post play is overrated? Are you kidding?
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There have been 2 players drafted in the last 20 years (or 1 in the last 15, or 0 in the last 10...) that have gotten rings with the offense put on their backs in the post. If you don't have the smarts or the personnel, and ESPECIALLY if you're forcing it, you're not getting very far.

So no, absolutely not. And Shaq had Wade and Kobe. And Duncan was a complete player (that also had Robinson, Ginobili, the best or 2nd best coach of the last 20 years, and/or probably the most perfect arsenal of role players ever assembled).

TEAM basketball. Take what the defense gives you. NOT "throw the ball into ogre, ogre score basket".
 
NUMBERICA said:
And his rookie year, the Celtics went to the playoffs. He played more the next year, they won less. He played a lot more the next year, and they managed to win even less than that. I know correlation does not necessarily show cause here but...
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Way too simplistic. In fact, if you look at his third year, when the Celtics won the least, he put up the best FG and TS percentages of his career. Posted a then career high in assists. Going a step further, what he did was so promising they were able to trade him for KG.
 
Anyway, I tried to avoid this thread, then I thought I could get away with a concise thought. But I can't say anything about the guy without it turning into the same discussion that has been poured over two-thousand times. I've said what I'm going to say.

Go Big Al. Go Jazz.
 
billyshelby said:
Way too simplistic. In fact, if you look at his third year, when the Celtics won the least, he put up the best FG and TS percentages of his career. Posted a then career high in assists. Going a step further, what he did was so promising they were able to trade him for KG.
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Ever hear of fool's gold?

K, done now.
 
NUMBERICA said:
There have been 2 players in the last 20 years that have gotten rings with the offense put on their backs in the post. If you don't have the smarts or the personnel, and ESPECIALLY if you're forcing it, you're not getting very far.

So no, absolutely not. And Shaq had Wade and Kobe. And Duncan was a complete player (that also had Robinson, Ginobili, the best or 2nd best coach of the last 20 years, and/or probably the most perfect arsenal of role players ever assembled).

TEAM basketball. Take what the defense gives you. NOT "throw the ball into ogre, ogre score basket".
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Of course big men need other good players. And of course they have to play in a system. But a low post scoring threat is part of virtually every winning team, and often it's the most important part. The Lakers won behind Shaq. The Spurs won behind Duncan. The Rockets won behind Hakeem. Yeah, there are exceptions. When you've got Jordan, you don't need the bigs to be truly dominant. But an inside outside game, usually anchored by two stars, is like the hallmark of championship building.
 
billyshelby said:
Of course big men need other good players. And of course they have to play in a system. But a low post scoring threat is part of virtually every winning team, and often it's the most important part. The Lakers won behind Shaq. The Spurs won behind Duncan. The Rockets won behind Hakeem. Yeah, there are exceptions. When you've got Jordan, you don't need the bigs to be truly dominant. But an inside outside game, usually anchored by two stars, is like the hallmark of championship building.
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I agree you need a big to be a pillar for your team (one of the biggest problems for OKC IMO), but I guess I think the facets to how a big plays is far more complex than feeding the ogre next to the hoop. I'd love to have a pillar-esque big, but I don't see it in Al (for a lot of reasons). I hope I'm wrong, but not as much as I hope I'm right and the Jazz can get something for him.
 
I think people need to give the guy a break being it was his first year here. His job was not easy when you have cj, ak and bell all pretty much sucking it up shooting. He did a hell of a job doing what he could with the team. Jazz will be in the playoffs next year as long as favors is starting and big al can match up good against teams. Glad to have him more then i would boozer for sure.

Like i said big al and favors starting together have not lost a game.
 
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