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Hayward - a Bust or Not?

My2cents

I decided to go back and check and it turns out your right and I was wrong. I must have been swayed by his summer league play. I was not the only one:

Matt Moore, CBS Sports: The Bucks are going to have a fleet of capable, talented power forwards this season. Sanders was one of the most impressive rookies in Vegas, playing solid defense, showing off a well-balanced frame, and looking very much like a versatile offensive option. Sanders’ mid-range game was considerably better than expected. He showed nice tough with the ball and again, is a mountain in terms of size. He needs to work on his spacing and defensive awareness, but it was a very impressive showing.

TrueHoop: How will Larry Sanders’ game fit in with Milwaukee’s existing parts? His sound face-up 18-footer will help a Bucks offense that was choked for open space in the half court. He also gives Brandon Jennings another dependable partner on the pick-and-roll and wins almost every race to the rim in transition. A Sanders-Andrew Bogut tandem could eventually constitute the best defensive frontcourt in the league. Milwaukee is unlikely to reach the highest echelon in the East with its firepower, but by blanketing the paint with two capable pick-and-roll defenders who can block shots and clean the glass, the Bucks have the makings of a team that could post a stingy defensive efficiency rating in the high 90s.

Jarrod Gillis, Examiner: In four games of summer league action Sanders is averaging 13.3 points, 9.3 rebounds, 1.8 steals, and 3.2 blocks per game (leads Bucks summer league team in points, rebounds, and blocks). He is the type of player that guys love to play with strictly based on the fact that he cleans up everything around the basket and has everyone’s back on the defensive end. His game very closely mirrors that of one, Marcus Camby. Another long, wiry 6′11″ guy that has made quite a career out of using his length, athleticism and excellent timing to wreak havoc on the defensive end of the court. Not a bad comparison, as Camby, when healthy, is one of the most dynamic players we have in our league today from a defensive standpoint. Sanders is not a fluent offensive player at this point in his early career. And from watching him courtside it is telling that his slight frame is a major issue when attempting to establish position on the block.

Frank Madden, BrewHoop: He again looked very comfortable catching and shooting from 15-18 feet, and by the end of the game he was really feeling good when he buried those two threes. He also splashed in a turnaround from the post for the second straight game, and all told it’s hard to deny that Sanders has more touch than he was given credit for before the draft. I don’t see him pumping in too many triples come the regular season, but his compact, well-balanced stroke looks like it should be a weapon from mid-range. Sanders also finished inside on a handful of occasions, throwing down a nice one-handed dunk and a couple short glassers off of broken plays. It looks like he has room to improve his finishing strength, but his opportunities have also been somewhat limited given the guards he’s playing with in Vegas. Lastly, Sanders had a couple nice passes to find Gallon open for layups, and he also had a very nice bounce pass out of the post to a cutting guard. I wrote last night that he’s definitely not just an athlete, and tonight we saw it even more.

Jon Krolik, ProBasketballTalk: Larry Sanders can flat-out play. He has so much skill for a guy with his size, length, and athleticism, and he’s one of the best defenders in Summer League. I’m genuinely excited to see a defensive frontline of Mbah a Moute/Sanders/Bogut in some situations next season.

Kevin Arnovitz, TrueHoop: The best descriptor for Larry Sanders? Grown-up. Sanders knows his way around a basketball court. He’s a vocal, standout team defender who knows where and, more important, when his help is needed. Offensively, he sets up low on the block — primed for the deep catch — and wins every race to the rim in transition. When he steps out to 17 feet, Sanders launches a face-up jumper with an air-tight rotation on the ball. Sanders may never be a Top 5 power forward in the league, but his fundamentals suggest he’s going to be a pretty effective player for a very long time.
 
I'll play along. I knew Elder Hayward was a bust before he played a single game. His lateral movement test at the combine told me he was not athletic enough to play in the NBA. Now he is smart and shots good free throws, but his physical limitations prevent him from playing in the NBA over the long haul. He is the opposite of Evans, who has all the physical tools, but is still learning the game.

As for the other draftees I disagree. As I have stated in previous thread I would have drafted in order sanders, Paul, patterson, babbit. While none of these guys are tearing up the league they have at least shown ability to play in this league. For instance, Sanders defense is very good and he is already in the top 10 in block shots during the preseason and he has played very limited minutes. Sanders defense is very good. The others aren't playing as well, but I think all are better than Hayward.

Blocked shots =/= good defense.
 
I hated the Hayward pick and I still don't like it. Since that's irrelevant, I'm trying to be patient. I could see him being a good player, but I could also see him being a bust down the road. We'll see but I hope I'm wrong.
 
I didn't understand why Sander's time made him athletic and Hayward's time made him too unathletic to play in the NBA. No big deal, I just didn't think you were applying the same standard to both players.
Because oldtimer is a Larry Sanders fanboy?
 
Ticc

I watched him play in summer league and came away impressed with his skills. I'm not a fanboy, but the original point of this thread was there was nobody drafted after Hayward that was better. I simply disagree and so do many experienced personnel people. I've been a jazz fan for over 30 years and it bothers me that the Jazz can't make a first round draft pick to save their life. Thank god for the second round.
 
Ticc

I watched him play in summer league and came away impressed with his skills. I'm not a fanboy, but the original point of this thread was there was nobody drafted after Hayward that was better. I simply disagree and so do many experienced personnel people. I've been a jazz fan for over 30 years and it bothers me that the Jazz can't make a first round draft pick to save their life. Thank god for the second round.
From all accounts, most (all?) of that professional personnel had Hayward ahead of Sanders.

Did you miss Hayward's summer league play?
 
Oh no, I recorded every game and watched them at least twice. Haywards play was tentative. What most people missed who just read the box scores is that Hayward scored almost half of his points from the free throw line at the end of games. I was not nearly as impressed as most people. His most impressive game was against Turner. I thought Hayward played some really good defense that game.

Ticc I love your passion, but I don't think Hayward is going to give you anything to cheer about this year.
 
If you applied the same arguments to both players, you'd realize how silly you sound.

1. Gordon Hayward tested poorly in lateral agility tests. So did Larry Sanders.

2. Larry Sanders played well in summer league. So did Gordon Hayward.

3. Gordon Hayward has sucked in preseason. So has Larry Sanders.

4. Professional personnel, blah blah blah...picks 10-14 were not Larry Sanders.

5. Tentative play...Gordon Hayward is 2 years younger than Larry Sanders.


Like I said, I was extremely angry at the pick, but I'm not going to latch onto other players despite their equally mediocre play. That would be stupid.
 
At the risk of sounding stupid I disagree with number 2 and 3 above. I believe Sanders way outplayed Gordon Hayward in summer league and I do not believe Sanders has sucked in preseason. Sanders has been up and down in preseason. One game he had five blocks. Today he had five fouls in one quarter. He is a rookie and will struggle. The difference between Sanders and Hayward is Sanders has shown glimpses that he can play in this league. Hayward not so much. But since I have to go to bed, lets agree that we have a difference of opinion and only time will tell who was right.
 
Also, I have a very low opinion of Jazz "fans" who would rather see Jazz players they don't like fail than succeed so they can say "I told you so".
 
At the risk of sounding stupid I disagree with number 2 and 3 above. I believe Sanders way outplayed Gordon Hayward in summer league and I do not believe Sanders has sucked in preseason. Sanders has been up and down in preseason. One game he had five blocks. Today he had five fouls in one quarter. He is a rookie and will struggle. The difference between Sanders and Hayward is Sanders has shown glimpses that he can play in this league. Hayward not so much. But since I have to go to bed, lets agree that we have a difference of opinion and only time will tell who was right.

From the boxscores, I don't see many more "glimpses" that Sanders is better than Hayward. That 5 block game (full boxscore included) is much better than anything Hayward has done. But when you look at rookies, you want to see them do things that resemble what great NBA players do. So I don't care that his shot isn't falling or his numbers don't look great.

I DO care about some of the passes I've seen him make. And I'll say one thing about the kid, I like him on the break a lot. He's obviously better than the trio of Thompson/Nichols/Jeffers angling for wing jobs. I'm coming into this season not expecting Hayward to make a great contribution. I think he's going to need a whole year to figure out the NBA. I think the same thing about Sanders.
 
I don't want Hayward to fail, I want to be proven wrong. I don't think I will. And while it bothers you when Jazz fans seem to root for jazz players to fail, it bothers me when Jazz fans start with a really strong dislike such as you express "an extreme dislike of the pick," but simply because he was selected you now defend the pick at all costs. Why can't a fan hate the pick and express that on a jazz message board? What exactly has Hayward done to change your mind?

Now really, I will have to read your response in the morning.
 
I don't want Hayward to fail, I want to be proven wrong. I don't think I will. And while it bothers you when Jazz fans seem to root for jazz players to fail, it bothers me when Jazz fans start with a really strong dislike such as you express "an extreme dislike of the pick," but simply because he was selected you now defend the pick at all costs. Why can't a fan hate the pick and express that on a jazz message board? What exactly has Hayward done to change your mind?

Now really, I will have to read your response in the morning.
When did I defend the pick? When did I change my mind? I don't think my initial opinion of the pick is terribly relevant right now. You're letting your initial reaction color your analysis (again, apply the same standard to BOTH players). Seems pretty stupid to me.
 
I don't want Hayward to fail, I want to be proven wrong. I don't think I will. And while it bothers you when Jazz fans seem to root for jazz players to fail, it bothers me when Jazz fans start with a really strong dislike such as you express "an extreme dislike of the pick," but simply because he was selected you now defend the pick at all costs. Why can't a fan hate the pick and express that on a jazz message board? What exactly has Hayward done to change your mind?

Now really, I will have to read your response in the morning.

Put this another way. It was obvious to me from the jump that Almond would never succeed in the NBA. The guy was way too flawed to ever dream he could make it. Hayward is light years better than Almond. I see all kinds of things that show me he could make it, but like you I don't know if he'll put it together. The point is Hayward has shown me in moments that there is cause for patience. I never saw Almond do one thing that made me believe time would fix anything.

You're really not seeing Hayward do things that don't look like good NBA player attributes? If not, you're looking at box scores, not games.
 
lol at evrybody defending the hayword pick. all u sheep just eat up everything the jazz management serves you. they just keep darfting white mormans and you just keep defending them even though gordon has PROVEN NOTHING THIS WHOLE SEASON!!! look around the league and john wall is lighting it up and so is damarcus cousins but hey atleast we got a whitey for all the whiteys they will just be happy with him doing nothing and letting hedo turkolu hit long range bomb 3 pointers over him al day and not even jump to block it cuz he haz zero hops like adam morinson.

HUGE fail - neither Wall or Cousins - or 8 other guys in the draft were available when Jazz had the pick.

"Jazz management" tried hard to move up but couldn't - if it was you would you give up a Wall or a Counsins pick?
 
haha evrybody sayin "just wait hayword will be good." meanwhile keep buying those jazz tickets and jersey's so KOC and gregmiller can just sit in there mansions and drink hot choclate and count they're money while all of us go to work cuz we have REAL JOBS!!! the jazz big wigs think they can darft whoever they want then just start up the "just wait he will be good" propoganda machine. well sooooo how long we supposed to wait greggy boy??? I know one thing...IM DONE WAITING!

FIRE OKC!!!
 
haha evrybody sayin "just wait hayword will be good." meanwhile keep buying those jazz tickets and jersey's so KOC and gregmiller can just sit in there mansions and drink hot choclate and count they're money while all of us go to work cuz we have REAL JOBS!!! the jazz big wigs think they can darft whoever they want then just start up the "just wait he will be good" propoganda machine. well sooooo how long we supposed to wait greggy boy??? I know one thing...IM DONE WAITING!

FIRE OKC!!!

Obviously you were one of those guys who complained when we drafted Stockton... good one!
 
I never thought I would say this, good game Hayward! Now its still only preseason so whoever started the thread "lets build around Hayward" needs to be slapped back into reality. However, I did not think Hayward could do that. Good job. Still think he is going to struggle as a rookie.
 
Still think he is going to struggle as a rookie.

And as a rookie we should be expecting that to some extent. Most rookies struggle, Even the superstars weren't anyware near as good as they are now when they were rookies. If Hayward just keeps playing the way he can and keeps improving then thats all I as for out of a draft pick.
 
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