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Hayward's Woes

candrew said:
I was thinking how ironic The Jazz eventually got Gordon Hayward by absorbing Tom Gugliotta's bloated contract.

And now (in more ways than one) Gordon Hayward has essentially tuned into.......Tom Gugliotta.
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*Googs.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Bummer for Hayward and the Celtics. I was pretty intrigued by how good they could be this year, but Hayward not being Hayward keeps them from being a championship team. Hope he gets back to his old form, but on New Orleans with Jrue/Randle/Brown core.
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Saint Cy of JFC said:
None of that makes sense. Many guards had career years next to Hayward. None of those guys where volume shooters like Mitchell, but its not like Hayward hogged the ball or took a ton of shots. Paul George still manages to put up ridiculous stats next to Westbrook, so I don't see why Mitchell couldn't do so with Hayward.

The fact is the Jazz would be really ****ing good if Hayward stayed.
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Agreed. With a core of Hayward, Mitchell, and Gobert, the Jazz would be a legit #2 Seed contender in West and then with some lucky breaks ....

I don't get the thinking that Mitchell is an alpha, Hayward a beta, but having Hayward here would have stunted Mitchell. If he's the alpha you think he his, he would have emerged regardless. But, with those three on the team, we'd be really damned good.
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
I don't get the thinking that Mitchell is an alpha, Hayward a beta, but having Hayward here would have stunted Mitchell. If he's the alpha you think he his, he would have emerged regardless. But, with those three on the team, we'd be really damned good.
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Usage matters, though. Mitchell is at 31% this year. That's a lot. Russell Westbrook is at 31% this year. Hayward was never higher than 28% when he was in Utah. There's only one ball, so it's a zero-sum game. If Hayward resigns with the Jazz, after the team practically begged him to stay, I can't see them suddenly turning around and cutting his usage in favour of a rookie.

Now, this usage issue is the root cause of Hayward's current troubles. This would've happened whether he got injured or not, though the injury has naturally exacerbated it. Hayward was easily number 1 in usage% on the Jazz his last season. He's 5th on the Celtics right now, and rightfully so. Irving and Tatum are better players than him, injury or not. Brown and Morris are better right now, because of the injury. One way or another, he would've been the third option on defense on this Celtics team, even if Crowder never ended his career, as we will eventually realize he did.

Hayward had a very unique situation on the Jazz where he neither had to be the leader nor was he objectively close to being the best player on the team(all advanced numbers favoured Rudy) yet the offense was built around his strengths. I can't think of other situations in the past 5-6 years where that happened in the NBA. This isn't to play down Hayward's contribution in 16-17, but the reality is that Rudy completely changes the game when he's in, but needs few touches to do it. That's a luxury no other player comparable to Hayward had.

It's really hard to understate just how good Rudy is and how gargantuan his impact is. Did y'all know he's leading the NBA in Win Shares? He's a few decimal points ahead of Harden. James Harden! Followed by Giannis, AD, PG, Jokić, Durant, and Lillard. Rudy's usage% this year is at 17.4, the highest of his career. Harden is at 41. Forty one percent, for crying out loud. Even Durant is at 31, sharing the court as he does with 4 other All-Stars.

I mean, just look at this list. Look at this mother****ing list. This is what Hayward left to team up with his college sweetheart.

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candrew said:
I was thinking how ironic The Jazz eventually got Gordon Hayward by absorbing Tom Gugliotta's bloated contract.

And now (in more ways than one) Gordon Hayward has essentially turned into.......Tom Gugliotta.
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Gordon Hayward is not worthy to sniff Tom Gugliotta"s jock strap.

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Stars Fan said:
Gordon Hayward is not worthy to sniff Tom Gugliotta"s jock strap.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using JazzFanz mobile app
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They do have similar career arcs - they were both drafted a little higher than projected. They both got off to shaky starts but progressively got better (Googs was traded a couple of times tho), they both made one all-star game and they both signed huge contracts immediately followed by injury and their production falling off a cliff.

Of course Gordo's complete story is still unwritten - clock is ticking.
 
Wow, a 7 page thread on Hayward's woes.... yet you chant "We don't miss you a FT line for him"

Awful lot of attention for not missing someone .... just sayin'
 
JimLes said:
Usage matters, though. Mitchell is at 31% this year. That's a lot. Russell Westbrook is at 31% this year. Hayward was never higher than 28% when he was in Utah. There's only one ball, so it's a zero-sum game. If Hayward resigns with the Jazz, after the team practically begged him to stay, I can't see them suddenly turning around and cutting his usage in favour of a rookie.

Now, this usage issue is the root cause of Hayward's current troubles. This would've happened whether he got injured or not, though the injury has naturally exacerbated it. Hayward was easily number 1 in usage% on the Jazz his last season. He's 5th on the Celtics right now, and rightfully so. Irving and Tatum are better players than him, injury or not. Brown and Morris are better right now, because of the injury. One way or another, he would've been the third option on defense on this Celtics team, even if Crowder never ended his career, as we will eventually realize he did.

Hayward had a very unique situation on the Jazz where he neither had to be the leader nor was he objectively close to being the best player on the team(all advanced numbers favoured Rudy) yet the offense was built around his strengths. I can't think of other situations in the past 5-6 years where that happened in the NBA. This isn't to play down Hayward's contribution in 16-17, but the reality is that Rudy completely changes the game when he's in, but needs few touches to do it. That's a luxury no other player comparable to Hayward had.

It's really hard to understate just how good Rudy is and how gargantuan his impact is. Did y'all know he's leading the NBA in Win Shares? He's a few decimal points ahead of Harden. James Harden! Followed by Giannis, AD, PG, Jokić, Durant, and Lillard. Rudy's usage% this year is at 17.4, the highest of his career. Harden is at 41. Forty one percent, for crying out loud. Even Durant is at 31, sharing the court as he does with 4 other All-Stars.

I mean, just look at this list. Look at this mother****ing list. This is what Hayward left to team up with his college sweetheart.

1.png
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Helluva post.
I like any post that shows Rudy's greatness. I'm always trying to make it known. People don't realize. I mean he leads the league in win shares and double doubles and is the defensive player of the year, he is a net 14 points positive when on the court vs off court.

Yet, he might not even make the all Star team. It's a travesty.
Screenshot_20190127-133658__01.jpegScreenshot_20190127-070050~2.jpeg

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JimLes said:
Usage matters, though. Mitchell is at 31% this year. That's a lot. Russell Westbrook is at 31% this year. Hayward was never higher than 28% when he was in Utah. There's only one ball, so it's a zero-sum game. If Hayward resigns with the Jazz, after the team practically begged him to stay, I can't see them suddenly turning around and cutting his usage in favour of a rookie.

Now, this usage issue is the root cause of Hayward's current troubles. This would've happened whether he got injured or not, though the injury has naturally exacerbated it. Hayward was easily number 1 in usage% on the Jazz his last season. He's 5th on the Celtics right now, and rightfully so. Irving and Tatum are better players than him, injury or not. Brown and Morris are better right now, because of the injury. One way or another, he would've been the third option on defense on this Celtics team, even if Crowder never ended his career, as we will eventually realize he did.

Hayward had a very unique situation on the Jazz where he neither had to be the leader nor was he objectively close to being the best player on the team(all advanced numbers favoured Rudy) yet the offense was built around his strengths. I can't think of other situations in the past 5-6 years where that happened in the NBA. This isn't to play down Hayward's contribution in 16-17, but the reality is that Rudy completely changes the game when he's in, but needs few touches to do it. That's a luxury no other player comparable to Hayward had.

It's really hard to understate just how good Rudy is and how gargantuan his impact is. Did y'all know he's leading the NBA in Win Shares? He's a few decimal points ahead of Harden. James Harden! Followed by Giannis, AD, PG, Jokić, Durant, and Lillard. Rudy's usage% this year is at 17.4, the highest of his career. Harden is at 41. Forty one percent, for crying out loud. Even Durant is at 31, sharing the court as he does with 4 other All-Stars.

I mean, just look at this list. Look at this mother****ing list. This is what Hayward left to team up with his college sweetheart.

1.png
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I get that usage rates matter, BUT I think Hayward and Mitchell would work well together. I don't agree either that Hayward would not have sacrificed any usage rate for Mitchell; he never tended toward ball hog/hero ball to begin with. Also, Mitchell uses at such a high rate because somebody on the team needs to use those possessions. Hayward would naturally have soaked some possessions; eventually they would have found some balance. Other teams make it work with multiple players who want possessions, I see no reason Mitchell and Hayward could not have made it work. Plus, the reality is that for team to content, it needs more than one high-possession and one low-possession, but highly efficient, star. Somewhere down the line, in order to contend, the Jazz will need somebody to take more possessions, unless Mitchell somehow reaches Harden levels of usage/efficiency.
 
ijazz said:
Wow, a 7 page thread on Hayward's woes.... yet you chant "We don't miss you a FT line for him"

Awful lot of attention for not missing someone .... just sayin'
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Wish I could disagree, but there are a lot af but hurt bitches in here. To my surprise I was relieved he left, and immediately thought let’s find our star. Little did I know we had already stumbled on one weeks earlier.
 
Bawse Dawg said:
Damn, I knew Rudy was awesome, but that's a great post, what a list! And to do that with just a 17.4 usage rate is actually staggering, no chance any other name on that list had one that low.
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Just a cursory look at other players turned up only one with a usage% under 30, and it was one of Robinson's seasons when he was at 29. If Rudy keeps this up and finishes top, it'll be historic. Only one of the players on that list has never won an MVP and that's Paul. He finished second in 2008 and I think he really did deserve it more than Kobe that year.

Either way, it's like you said, staggering. Every other player on that list was a "give me the ball and watch me win games." Rudy is "give the other team the ball and watch me win games." There's only one player in NBA history that I can think of that you can say was that way.

4d7f67cf3a2e520480188827cfb1303e--sports-basketball-basketball-players.jpg
 
LoPo said:
Wow dude really?

Do you know the history of Len Bias? Do you know he was a 1st rounder with LeBron like buzz when he came out?

Do you also realize that Nike got sued by the Beatles label because they released a shoe called Revolution, made thousands of them and had to rebrand them which created the opening for MJ? It is very, very possible that Len Bias playing for one of the two biggest franshises in the NBA would have been the poster boy.

But he died and the rest is history...



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He also liked to **** around with drugs.. who knows what the bright lights would have done to him. Talented sure but to say he woulda been MJ is ****ing stupid.
 
Seriously though, I'm blown away by that win shares stat that Jim posted.

You look at that list of guys who led the league in win shares and I would guess that the majority of them were mvp's of that season. I'm pretty certain all of them were at least top 3 player in the NBA that season.

So is Rudy a top 3 player? I think most everyone would say not even close, but that stat makes ya have to wonder. Would Rudy be the first and only player to lead the league in win shares and not be considered a top 3 guy? If so, why? Is he even considered top 10 by most? I doubt it. Most under rated player in the NBA.

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Last edited:
Wanna hear a crazy thing? It's not a anomaly. In 2016-2017, last time Rudy played a full season, this was the order of top 10 players by win-shares:

1. Harden
2. Rudy
3. Butler
4. Kawhi
5. Westbrook
6. LeBron
7. KAT
8. Curry
9. IT
10. Giannis

Here's some more advanced stats. Rudy's on-off net per 100 possessions is +10.2. James Harden? +6.1. The other James? +8.7. You think the Lakers suck without LeBron? We should all perform animal sacrifice to appease the NBA injury gods and keep them away from #27. And you wanna hear a dirty secret? Nikola Jokić is -1.1.

So @fishonjazz, maybe the question shouldn't be if he's top 3 right now? Maybe it should be whether he's been top 3 for a few years now.
 
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