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Health Care options

How will the care be covered?

  • Hospital passes the cost of care to other patients

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .

One Brow

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I'm curious how the board they should be covered for a parent who does not buy health insurance for a child, and then the child winds up with a highly-treatable-but-expensive-to-treat disease that would be fatal if untreated. I see basically a few options. If anyone hs a different option, let me know and I'll try to add it.

To claify the options:
Anyone qualifying for Medicaid/CHIP basically has insurance, so they are not being discussed in this scenario.
Saying the hospitals should just treat them, without making any other provision, is basically the second option. A hospital will pass on that cost to other patients (or else go broke).
 
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Maybe a little editing could clarify the options and question here.

Parents who have no job and no money might be one case where a lot of us, even me, might not squeal about government paying hospitals and doctors for care given, if they are citizens or legal residents might be one case, illegals another. Parents with good jobs and who have any assets will be billed by the doctors and hospitals and will face judgments and maybe will resort to bankruptcy to preserve the home the child lives in. Medical care is the number one cause of bankruptcy in this country. I know of some doctors who have done significant charitable care. I wouldn't object to some basic tax law that allows them the benefit of their charity against their taxes. Probably is already on the books, but I don't know specifically.

A lot of states have the federally-subsized CHIP program in some form which places uninsured children on a government-subsidized insurance program. I don't know much about that. My kids and wife were covered by two job-benefit health insurance coverages when they were born and needed intensive care. Still are. Insurance companies have still made money covering me and my family.

Illegal migrant workers and their families have been cared for on government-imposed mandates by hospitals, which has forced hospitals to raise rates for those of us who pay or who have insurance.
 
Many do not understand what goes into healthcare and shouldn't comment (Nothing against the 2 posts above).

I work in the healthcare industry and quite frankly there is not one answer to all the problems. Universal healthcare sounds like a great idea but people will complain when they wait hours to see a Physician. There are not enough Physicians as is to see the public population let alone flooding it with non insured patients who need even more medical care than the normal insured person.

One thing regarding cost is the lifespan and medical advances we have now vs. years ago. People live longer. I was talking with a Physician just yesterday that just seen a patient who had a knee and hip replacement, triple bipass surgery, and was on oxygen currently. The doctor stated that the patient was the true million dollar man. The problem with the money that goes into the system vs. out is the main issue of why we are where we are at. The older we get, the more care we need. The baby boomers will be hitting very soon and with the shortage already and requirements of Physicians no one wants to be a doctor. If they go to Universal Healthcare Physicians will leave the US to practice in other countries... book it.

I work mainly with the Non Profit health centers that see the underserved population and the only way they stay open is through state and federal funding. Last year a bill was proposed to increase the amount of federal money for Federally Qualified Health Centers to 12 Billion... the number stayed flat from 2010 at around 3. IF this bill goes through and all are given healthcare its a double standard as there are not enough doctors to see them and the country doesn't have the money to fund it.

Again.. I don't claim to know the answer and like the thought of anyone having healthcare but at the same time it wont work. Pretty much anyone does have healthcare now... the Emergency Rooms. They cannot turn away patients and you have the number of ER visits go through the roof the past few years. The problem is the hospitals then go broke because they can't collect on any of those visits.

Our entire structure is broken and instead of Politicans listening to Doctors in the medical field they try and set laws to fix it.

One thing also to look into is the emergence of ACO's. Read up on it as it will be the future of healthcare on how it is approached.
 
Why don't we allow more medical schools to be built? I heard a while ago that we haven't added any since the 60s. Huh???????????

Make it less expensive, cut some of the training/classes (there's obviously some stuff that could be cut. It's just made to make students go in circles and gather in another year or two of their money), and turn out more health care professionals.
 
Why don't we allow more medical schools to be built? I heard a while ago that we haven't added any since the 60s. Huh???????????

Make it less expensive, cut some of the training/classes (there's obviously some stuff that could be cut. It's just made to make students go in circles and gather in another year or two of their money), and turn out more health care professionals.

Same amount of Medical Schools now that there were in 1938 (Or around that time)
 
Same amount of Medical Schools now that there were in 1938 (Or around that time)

And so why is this? Is there any good that comes out of this?

LOL.

It's obvious what some people are doing.... Prevent more schools from being built=controlling medical school costs. If there isn't any increase in schools corresponding with the increase in population, then the demand for health care professionals is going to be sky high while the supply is going to be too low...

Those who decide to play this little game and go through all the loops, must fork out what these schools charge. In most (all) cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars. For years and years! I'm sure we could do away with one or two years of med school and still have enough training to be fine. This becomes large amounts of debt which help "justify" the high prices that doctors must charge.

I know that in Brazil, many doctors there complain about our system. How we put professionals through a bunch of "worthless training" thus wasting years and thousands of (tuition) dollars because of our corrupt system. I think partially it is because of fear of being sued. So we try and dot all the "I"s and cross all the "T"s. But at the same time, whoever gets to control the education system, gets to basically control our entire health care system. Billions of dollars are at stake, and I'm sure everyone is looking to maximize their profit... Even if patients end up ultimately getting screwed over...

Those who run these schools, must make millions if not billions.

It also helps perpetuate our "for profit" system since we can always fall back on the "doctor shortage" argument when it comes to socializing this thing.

It's no mystery why our system is so ****ty.
 
I voted blue fairy.

I suspect a combination of things could help those truly in need due to handicap or unfortunate circumstance. I would expect churches, charitable organizations, programs doctors join that provide free or reduced cost care to provide a good deal of help. I expect families to support fellow family members in need.

If it was understood that you couldn't pull the money of of the pockets of people who put in an honest days work (as in, they "spent" a portion of their life/existence for the money they earned) I would think individuals would make their own voluntary contribution in one way or another to help. Would it save every sick person? No. Is that tragic? Yes. Would it be more tragic to take by force whatever society (and/or the elite who control the channels of influence of our representatives) deems it needs from the individuals it controls (owns)? Yes. Why? Because we will never be better off as a species if we become our nations' livestock. We must support the individual because only the individual has the power and interest to provide for the best possible outcome for them-self. And by each person working for their own best outcome, and being highly motivated to succeed (a huge piece of the puzzle, what communism completely lacks), as a whole we become as good as we can be.

One Brow made a point that we do something because we are communal and compassionate. I couldn't make a single better argument for why libertarianism will work and forced charity (re-distribution via taxation, fees, penalties, regulations and limitations) is an efficiency killer that robs from the disadvantaged first and foremost.
 
Oh, and as cruel as this statement is, it is undeniably true.

We are all going to die. Not one of us is worth ruining everything for in the vain hope that we avoid death and suffering.
 
Why don't we allow more medical schools to be built? I heard a while ago that we haven't added any since the 60s. Huh???????????

Make it less expensive, cut some of the training/classes (there's obviously some stuff that could be cut. It's just made to make students go in circles and gather in another year or two of their money), and turn out more health care professionals.

Actually, part of the response to that is an increase in mid-level providers (Nurse Practitioners, Physician's Assistants, etc.). They have more training than an RN, but less than an MD.
 
One Brow made a point that we do something because we are communal and compassionate. I couldn't make a single better argument for why libertarianism will work and forced charity (re-distribution via taxation, fees, penalties, regulations and limitations) is an efficiency killer that robs from the disadvantaged first and foremost.

Unfortunately, relying on unorganized giving is haphazard, and often succumbs to the prejudices of the community. It is the opposite of effecient, unless you construct an umbrella organization with its own bureaucracy.

Thanks for voting. What happens to the kids that don't get donations, in this case? Do they die?
 
I voted Blue Ferry because they create money (federal reserve) from thin air all the time to pay for government spending.
 
I hate health insurance.

the ammount of money is pent on that. cxomes nowhere near on what they had have to cover.

C'mon. Insurance companies build really neat skyscrapers and pay fine wages, especially for management. I'm sure the poor, the sick, the maimed, and the disabled are proud of their contributions to the skyline. It ranks right up there in status with the wealthy patrons who give $50000 to the hospital and get a plaque with their names engraved placed on the hall of benefactors, who then get fifteen thousand dollars tax writeoff.

And you know, the way we do it now is one of the most regressive of all possible taxes. We use government power to mandate that hospitals give care to folks who can't pay, and then make other ill, sick, disabled, maimed or dying patients or their third-party payers pay for the uninsured. Drives up the cost of insurance so more folks can't afford it, drives up the cost of medical care, and just heaps it all on the common folks who are being driven to banckruptcy, which forces more foreclosures on homes, more deadbeat tenants, etc. driving the real estate values down and helping to put banks on the verge of failure so we can justify running the printing presses to bail the bankers out.

Now ask me again why I think government is the problem.
 
babe,

How'd you vote?

waiting for a revised list of options. . . . . probably like waiting for the system to be changed, too. My kids are insured in an attempt to safeguard my finances from risk, and are being told about the dangers of some state-mandated health plagues like the indiscriminate and always detrimental use of ritalin to secure compliance inside public schools. My kids get to dance, jiggle, squirm and change their activity as needed while being home-schooled. Jail is not good enough for 'professionals' who purvey "medicines" like ritalin.

So if we are going to use "government" money to pay for healthcare, like the government ever really did produce anything in the first place, how would that be different from just giving people having health problems a tax holiday until their estraodinary healthcare bills have been compensated for that way. Direct benefit to the hapless victims of the medical profession. . . . Would still raise medical costs because anytime you subsidize anything, the market demand will expand. . . . . in the case of the "medical market" it expands by increments due to people being less scared of the costs therefore less careful sometimes, and more willing to submit to the system quacks providing ineffective and even harmful medications from Big Pharma as well as village shamans and Aunt Bessie, and every other vain and foolish human attempt to throw a stick at Nature and mortality.

During FDR times we subsidized community hospitals by paying for the equipment doctors and hospitals needed at a fair amount of local sites. It was pretty effective and in retrospect not all that much of a burden on taxpayers, with some benefit to all citizens. Back in those days, churches like the Catholic Church and others, including the LDS Church, did their bit by sponsoring hospitals and giving free care to those who couldn't pay. Most of those hospitals have been taken over now, by corporates with shareholder value in their minds. Not charity.

So our government and it's regulatory establishment bureaucracy have driven charity out of society. Or re-directed it under some theory of management by policy, with the result of placing most of us in a position of dependence on the government-approved 'system' preferred by major lobbyist groups. A virtual hijack of our medical care by for-profit concerns.

National healthcare mandates coupled with the state family cop bureaucracies with the court-supported power to impose current medical "standard care" protocols on kids operate effectively to create a sort of state-sanctioned "medical regime" we have no choice but yield up ourselves and our kids to, even if we have beliefs that these things are not unqualified and unquestionable treatments. Any time you take a socialist path, you end up losing the personal control of your decisions in some vital area of your life. Socialism, whether we realize it as such or not, also breeds busy-bodies with ideals considered worthy of forceful imposition on those dolts who don't see the light the way you do. I prefer all the dangers and limitations of direct personal responsibility, over the dangers and limitations of "experts" who may not have their necks on block at the moment to provoke questions or doubts about their own thinking.

Under claims of doing what is right for all, government is essentially hijacked by one clique or another who have taken the supposed high ground in the battle to dictate to all the terms under which we must try to live. Those who presently lead those factions get to call themselves "experts" or "professionals" no matter how messed up they really are. Those who don't know better are, like alcoholics who won't admit their problems, "enabled" by government to bask in their illusions that all is right with the world, while like lemmings we all march into the hospitals that will kill us one way or another, sooner or later.




Nice job, government.
 
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waiting for a revised list of options. . . . . probably like waiting for the system to be changed, too.

So if we are going to use "government" money to pay for healthcare, like the government ever really did produce anything in the first place, how would that be different from just giving people having health problems a tax holiday until their healthcare bills have been compensated for that way. Direct benefit to the hapless victims of the medical profession. . . . Would still raise medical costs because anytime you subsidize anything, the market demand will expand. . . . . in the case of the "medical market" its expands by increments due to people being less scared of the costs therefore less careful sometimes, and more willing to submit to the system quacks providing ineffective and even harmful medications from Big Pharma as well as village shamans and Aunt Bessie, and every other vain and foolish human attempt to throw a stick at Nature and mortality.

During FDR times we subsidized community hospitals by paying for the equipment doctors and hospitals needed at a fair amount of local sites. It was pretty effective and in retrospect not all that much of a burden on taxpayers, with some benefit to all citizens. Back in those days, churches like the Catholic Church and others, including the LDS Church, did their bit by sponsoring hospitals and giving free care to those who couldn't pay. Most of those hospitals have been taken over now, by corporates with shareholder value in their minds. Not charity.

So our government and it's regulatory establishment bureaucracy have driven charity out of society.

Nice job, government.

If you have any options that are truly different, I'll add them. A "tax holiday" seems very much like using tax monies, except the hospital has no guaranteee that the cost will be covered by the re-directed taxes, so it still has to do some cost-shifting. However, I'm open to a discussion that it is a genuinely different idea.

Part of my reason for having the pool was to point out that there are no really good options here. For people opposing mandatory health insurance, I'm asking them to examine the alternatives. I'll be happy to revfise the poll if I get some.

Hospitals that didn't go corporate went broke or got pushed aside, as the costs of medcine climbed, for reasons that have little to do with government.
 
If you have any options that are truly different, I'll add them. A "tax holiday" seems very much like using tax monies, except the hospital has no guaranteee that the cost will be covered by the re-directed taxes, so it still has to do some cost-shifting. However, I'm open to a discussion that it is a genuinely different idea.

Part of my reason for having the pool was to point out that there are no really good options here. For people opposing mandatory health insurance, I'm asking them to examine the alternatives. I'll be happy to revfise the poll if I get some.

Hospitals that didn't go corporate went broke or got pushed aside, as the costs of medcine climbed, for reasons that have little to do with government.

I worked on a reply to this a few days ago, but I guess I must've looked out at the weather and just decided I'd better get on the road sooner than later and just dumped it.

My "tax holiday" euphoric thought was possibly somewhat like our current medical deductions on the itemized forms, except I've always groused at having to run up some really big bills before it could possibly ever be a good choice to itemize. I have never itemized, even with some big home mortgage interest I could put in.

For folks who never pay any taxes, a "tax holiday" is meaningless. . . . 47% out of the game right there. And almost all of the uninsured kids your poll addresses. For folks who have good jobs with insurance coverage, like me, it would also be meaningless. So it's for the self-employed who do make enough money to pay taxes, and who also have to pay a significant part of the costs of the uninsured, the illegals the government forces the corporate hospital emergency rooms to treat for ordinary complaints. . . .or worse. Well, actually anyone who works for any company that pays for health insurance is seeing their salary negotiating position affected by the cost of their health insurance.

I'd just like truly catastrophic illnesses/injuries not be the reason for bankruptcy. . . . meaning since in that case the hospitals don't get paid, the 53% have to pay not only higher medical costs for themselves but higher interest rates on mortgages to bail out the bank's losses, and higher taxes for the welfare benefits etc etc etc. So give them a low-interest loan with ten years' taxes due taken as payoff on the loan. Give others who contribute a dollar-matching tax benefit. Maybe they'll have hope and keep trying. I've carried tenants who had overwhelming medical problems before for while, until I couldn't justify it because they were just doped out on pain meds and robbing the neighborhood pharmacy for clearly destructive levels of abuse. I've also seen LDS bishops carry tenants for years in questionable circumstances, until it became quite clearly a no-win and in fact self-destructive and fraudulent abuse thing. People die inside when they can't see the reason to get up and go back to work when they can. If you're going to create perpetual dependence, you'd be more humane to just line them up on a firing line and order "shoot".

I like co-ops and credit unions. . . . great concept of participant ownership, collective market power, direct benefits to participants. I like that better than corporations defined by shareholder interests and cartel tactics. Let's do a health co-op. We'll hire all kinds of health practitioners, by group contract, including homeopathists, allopathists, chiropractors, even health-maintenance groups who do heavy preventative counseling. We'll use a baseline concept like the medical savings accounts to incentivize participants to cut down on the nickel & dime non-serious stuff, and pay a reasonable insurance rate for the catastropic type of thing. We'll ask those who can to further contribute to a charity aimed at saving the lives of kids whose parents are not insured, and ask our competent providers to match our contribution when they care for kids our charity is going to help.

I really like seeing some kid's pic nailed to all the lightpoles telling about the bank where you can contribute to help pay for the needed care. And hearing the good news about all the people who helped.


I like seeing extended families pitching in to help family members in times of catastrophic need. I like seeing doctors give a kid a cut rate---that happens more than you'd probably imagine, and the private charities that pitch in on numerous types of cases.

In the case of catastrophic medical needs, such as saving a kid's life, there is a huge payback that comes from saving the kid's life when he grows up and becomes productive. Keeping people directly involved in the whole operation is much healthier for us as a nation than just letting the government directly pay for it all. Giving people incentive to care about the kids,particularly kids they know, has untold paybacks. Maybe we shouldn't "match dollar for dollar" contributions vs. taxes owed, exactly, but we should recognize the value of it and encourage/incentivize it enough to get it to happen in the first place, rather than just pay for it from the "government".
 
For folks who never pay any taxes, a "tax holiday" is meaningless. . . . 47% out of the game right there.

There are other sorts of taxes besides federal income taxes that a tax holiday could be paid out of, or diverted from. It's not like 47% of the country pays no taxes at all.

At any rate, much of that 47% will already be insured by Medicaid, CHIP, or a similar program.

... who also have to pay a significant part of the costs of the uninsured, the illegals the government forces the corporate hospital emergency rooms to treat for ordinary complaints. . . .or worse.

Again, many of these people are paid for by government programs already. I work for a FQHC and an associated community hospital, and we have programs for migrant workers, homeless, verterans, etc. in addition to taking Medicaid.

So give them a low-interest loan with ten years' taxes due taken as payoff on the loan.

Again, many of these people are paid for by government programs already. I work for a FQHC and an associated community hospital, and we have programs for migrant workers, homeless, verterans, etc. in addition to taking Medicaid.

The concept of the health co-op is interesting, but if you force the parent into one, that's not much different from having them buyy insurance, is it? If the co-op is large enough, it's basically a mutual health insurance company.

I'mnot opposwed to donations, but not every kid will receive them. What happens when the donations fail?
 
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