Houston in talks with Kyrylo Fesenko.

[Twin Towers]

I don't get your logic Twin..

1. "Most teams don't have money or know the Jazz will match" - so you're saying if some teams offered him $4mil a year then the Jazz will match? Are you kidding me?
2. "Jazz only offering qualifying offer... but will match just about any offer" - so... do they want him for longer 1 year or not? If yes why haven't they offered him a 2 year contract already? If no then why would they match "any offer"?
3. "He is bargain whether he gets better or not" - so why have they not signed him already? Let him walk next year when he's got 1 more year of experience under his belt and becoming a free agent?

What I think is the case is this - the Jazz are sure that although he's got potential - that potential is not great. Also they believe there are bigger fishes in the sea next year (i.e., Tomic). They want him for cheap this year - and that's it. End of story.

There is also of course the chance that Fesenko will become last year's Mathews.. but they must have worked out the odds for that - and figured that it's not very likely.

I can see why you don't get my logic. I guess I made that confusing. But we all know he is immature and they are more worried about cap space right now than anything. After AK's huge contract is off the books the jazz will be fine. But this year they are trying not to spend too much.
So the Jazz most likely want him to just sign that 1 year deal.
I am not saying the Jazz would match the 4 Million dollar a year but I think he is worth it myself.

Fesenko obviously thinks he can get more than 1 Million a year and the Jazz don't want to play that this year. But I bet the Jazz would love to keep him long term but they also dont want to pay too much in luxury tax this year. I think the 1 year deal will see if he matures and also gives them more options next summer.
But I think the Jazz like him and if he gets a 2 or 3 Million dollar a year contract I think the Jazz would sign it so they don't lose him. But they don't want to his year because of the luxury tax. That is just my opinion though.
It all has to do with the luxury tax more than Fesenko as a player in my opinion. Jazz are just going the cheap route.

 

[Twin Towers]

That's exactly my point - if the Jazz still thinks that he's got "massive" potential - then why don't they sign him to a 2 year contract? Why waste this year "teaching him" and once he becomes a decent player we lose him to the sharks (Houston, Dallas, Denver, Portland..etc) next year?

The only conclusion is that they must think that his potential is not "massive" enough and therefore have given up.

That's the logic anyway assuming they'd learnt from the Mathews shenanigans....

Again I don't think its related to Fesenko as much as its related to the luxury tax. I think the Jazz know that he is worth more than 1 Million a year but that is the great thing about restricted free agents. Jazz do not have to offer him a contract even. They can see what he is worth. It sucked with Matthews but look what happened with Millsap. He will only get paid 6 to 7 Million for the next couple of years. Thats a bargain for what is he going to do to for us this coming season.
Jazz are just being smart and trying to get him for cheap for 1 year to avoid paying more luxury tax.

 

[Twin Towers]

I've been one of the biggest Fesenkophiles, but I would say that he is a ways away from going 30 MPG from even a physical conditioning standpoint, not to mention skillwise.

That being said, I agree with you that they should lock him up for two to four years. He probably hasn't developed naturally as quickly as Sloan would've liked, and his off-court behavior hasn't been exemplary, but Sloan hasn't given him a lot of on-court experience to really put it into practice.

Part of me wishes that someone overseas or here--wherever--would put put some pressure into Utah signing Fes to a multiyear deal, ideally at modest money ($2 million give or take a million).

I think Fesenko is like most young players. They don't get motivated until they get playing time (CJ Miles). I am not saying he should be rewarded for not being motivated. But if you want to develop raw players that is what they need. Experience. He needs more.

No he is not ready to play 30 minutes a game but if given the chance to play more minutes CONSISTENTLY than I think he would try harder and feel obligated to his teammates. Its immaturity big time but that is what happens with raw players who have gotten by on physical gifts rather than hard work. That is why I hate when the Jazz draft prospects with raw talent. We waste them.

 

[The Midnight]

I can see why you don't get my logic. I guess I made that confusing. But we all know he is immature and they are more worried about cap space right now than anything. After AK's huge contract is off the books the jazz will be fine. But this year they are trying not to spend too much.
So the Jazz most likely want him to just sign that 1 year deal.
I am not saying the Jazz would match the 4 Million dollar a year but I think he is worth it myself.

Fesenko obviously thinks he can get more than 1 Million a year and the Jazz don't want to play that this year. But I bet the Jazz would love to keep him long term but they also dont want to pay too much in luxury tax this year. I think the 1 year deal will see if he matures and also gives them more options next summer.
But I think the Jazz like him and if he gets a 2 or 3 Million dollar a year contract I think the Jazz would sign it so they don't lose him. But they don't want to his year because of the luxury tax. That is just my opinion though.
It all had to do with the luxury tax more than Fesenko as a player in my opinion. Jazz are just going the cheap route.

Yeah OK I got your point - either, Option 1: pay, say $8 mil for 4 years (+$2 of tax this year) = $10m total including tax .. or fight over the sharks next year when he's in free agency ($12m for 4 years seems reasonable). But.. then you'll have to fight with the sharks.. if that's your cup of tea.

I guess all this guess work would go away once (if..) Houston does sign him to an offer sheet... then we'll REALLY know what the Jazz are thinking...

 

[Twin Towers]

Yeah OK I got your point - either, Option 1: pay, say $8 mil for 4 years (+$2 of tax this year) = $10m total including tax .. or fight over the sharks next year when he's in free agency ($12m for 4 years seems reasonable). But.. then you'll have to fight with the sharks.. if that's your cup of tea.

I guess all this guess work would go away once (if..) Houston does sign him to an offer sheet... then we'll REALLY know what the Jazz are thinking...

Ya I think that is reasonable for next year depending on who has money next summer. I think the Jazz value the cap flexibility more than Fesenko as a player. I think the Jazz front office likes him but Sloan does not. I think the Jazz want him but only as limited player off the bench. And since we already have Okur, Millsap & Jefferson for at least 2 more years our rotation is already set (if Okur is healthy). And Elson will provide some help too so the Jazz don't want to pay him a couple Million a year when he might not even play. The Okur status is very questionable. Whether or not Fesenko is with us this coming year we will need to sign another back up Center.

 

[NUMBERICA]

FWIW, the Rockets only have about $1.3 million left of their MLE (after signing Brad Miller). They MIGHT have their bi-annual exception but that's in the $2 million range. This is good news.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Yeah OK I got your point - either, Option 1: pay, say $8 mil for 4 years (+$2 of tax this year) = $10m total including tax .. or fight over the sharks next year when he's in free agency ($12m for 4 years seems reasonable). But.. then you'll have to fight with the sharks.. if that's your cup of tea.

I guess all this guess work would go away once (if..) Houston does sign him to an offer sheet... then we'll REALLY know what the Jazz are thinking...

I still think that the Jazz would quite possibly save money by offering Fes a multiyear deal now at $2 million or so. The problem comes if he has any significant improvement and his price tag goes up to $5 million plus--a reasonable salary for an established backup--as early as next year. It's better to give Utah a 2 to 4 years to find a replacement for him--such as Tomic, although he's more of a scoring 4--than to be in the same place next year with only a slow, overpriced, aging Eurobig (Okur) backing up Jefferson and Millsap. Also, I'm not sure if the Jazz would have to use part of their MLE next year when he's a UFA instead of being able to match or name the price this year.

 

[Twin Towers]

I still think that the Jazz would quite possibly save money by offering Fes a multiyear deal now at $2 million or so. The problem comes if he has any significant improvement and his price tag goes up to $5 million plus--a reasonable salary for an established backup--as early as next year. It's better to give Utah a 2 to 4 years to find a replacement for him--such as Tomic, although he's more of a scoring 4--than to be in the same place next year with only a slow, overpriced, aging Eurobig (Okur) backing up Jefferson and Millsap. Also, I'm not sure if the Jazz would have to use part of their MLE next year when he's a UFA instead of being able to match or name the price this year.

I think the Jazz could possibly save money too by signing him long term. 2 Million a year. But I think the Jazz care more about the luxury tax and think is value won't go up next summer. I honestly don't think it will only because he won't get playing time. He will play behind Elson and Okur (when healthy). And only get playing time in the beginning of the year. Next summer I think they will sign him long term. But Fesenko might just leave because the Jazz didn't sign him long term. Big risk in my opinion but I don't think Sloan likes him so that is why we are doing this.

 

[InGameStrategy]

I think the Jazz could possibly save money too by signing him long term. 2 Million a year. But I think the Jazz care more about the luxury tax and think is value won't go up next summer. I honestly don't think it will only because he won't get playing time. He will play behind Elson and Okur (when healthy). And only get playing time in the beginning of the year. Next summer I think they will sign him long term. But Fesenko might just leave because the Jazz didn't sign him long term. Big risk in my opinion but I don't think Sloan likes him so that is why we are doing this.

If true, it's only adding to the theory that Sloan doesn't develop players well.

At times, especially against some matchups, Fesenko was more effective than Okur. Fes helped to mask Boozer's deficiency better than Matador Memo did. Fes was rarely used down the stretch because Sloan evidently liked Okur's 3-point shooting (which didn't always compensate for his defense). But the outside shot is more replaceable than inside D.

Barring someone who might end up with a prison sentence or who really messes up chemistry in the locker room or practice, the #1 criterion for evaluating a player should be what they do on the court. Fes doesn't pay a lot of attention in the huddle, but he is possibly the best matchup against the Twin Towers of Tinseltown that Utah has (depending on how Jefferson pans out defensively; AJ would likely take the other one anyway). I'm not convinced that Francisco Dutchman will be able to do the same.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Also, I'm not sure if the Jazz would have to use part of their MLE next year when he's a UFA instead of being able to match or name the price this year.

Fesenko has been on the Jazz for three years so the Jazz own his Bird Rights. They could technically give him a $10 million per year deal right now if they wanted to (which of course would be retarded). That's why 2nd round picks are given three year deals (usually with a team option in the third year), so that if they pan out, the team not only has their agency rights, but their Bird Rights as well (in case a team over the cap offered a deal larger than the MLE in the first year of the new contract, the original team would not be able to match the offer without Bird Rights [which occur when a player is on a single team continuously for three years, meaning not having been trade or cut at any point in that time]). It's in a situation like this that the Jazz were able to heist Boozer from Cleveland as they not only lost their right of first refusal by not picking up their option on him, even if Cleveland still had ROFR, the Jazz spent over the MLE and Cleveland would not have been able to match. Boozer only screwed Cleveland as much as they were trying to screw him (and break NBA laws in the process). Also similarly, if Chicago wanted to spend over the MLE on Matthews, the Jazz would not have been able to match even if they wanted to.

Anyway, I personally think the Jazz should sign Fesenko to a 3-year, $6 million deal at $2 million even every year.

 

[Ben10]

Also similarly, if Chicago wanted to spend over the MLE on Matthews, the Jazz would not have been able to match even if they wanted to.

This is not true do to the Arenas rule. No team could have offered Matthews more than the MLE because he was only a first year player.

 

[NUMBERICA]

This is not true do to the Arenas rule. No team could have offered Matthews more than the MLE because he was only a first year player.

...? I'm going to have to check on that, but that may be true.

Edit: Well I'll be damned. Tip of the hat to you.

 

[GVC]

Also, that first round pick ended up being Omri Casspi.

Casspi + Greene + Jackson for Artest + Singletary + Ewing, Jr.

Sacramento did pretty well on that trade.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Also, that first round pick ended up being Omri Casspi.

Casspi + Greene + Jackson for Artest + Singletary + Ewing, Jr.

Sacramento did pretty well on that trade.

True, but I don't think the Rockets came out poorly, either. Donte Greene and whoever the Rockets would've drafted at their slot probably would've just been some more rotation players that the Rockets almost seem to have too many of as it is.

 

[sirkickyass]

So Donte Greene has no value? There are more than a few Sacramento Kings fans who would disagree.

Sure. There were also more than a few Jazz fans that thought Koufos had value. Two years ago Greene was among the very worst at his postion. Last season he was merely significantly below average. I notice that you don't dispute that virtually every GM in the league would have done the deal.

As to Casspi, he turned into a pretty good late first-rounder. But the reality is that from the perspective of the Rockets they were trading a late first-rounder, not Omri Casspi. Its hard to kill them for trading a pick that turned into a steal down the road. It's not like they traded a lottery position.

The point is this: Morey is a good GM and he generally doesn't screw up. The stuff being mentioned is picking nits. If he's interested in Fes that's only a positive indicator.

 

[Sneakers]

I just think it's funny that Houston is giving Fesenko a "presentation", as if he's Lebron ****ing James or something.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Sure. There were also more than a few Jazz fans that thought Koufos had value. Two years ago Greene was among the very worst at his postion. Last season he was merely significantly below average. I notice that you don't dispute that virtually every GM in the league would have done the deal.

As to Casspi, he turned into a pretty good late first-rounder. But the reality is that from the perspective of the Rockets they were trading a late first-rounder, not Omri Casspi. Its hard to kill them for trading a pick that turned into a steal down the road. It's not like they traded a lottery position.

The point is this: Morey is a good GM and he generally doesn't screw up. The stuff being mentioned is picking nits. If he's interested in Fes that's only a positive indicator.

While I provided a bit of dissenting information, I definitely agree with that assessment. I'm actually being redundant.

 

[GVC]

Sure. There were also more than a few Jazz fans that thought Koufos had value. Two years ago Greene was among the very worst at his postion. Last season he was merely significantly below average. I notice that you don't dispute that virtually every GM in the league would have done the deal.

As to Casspi, he turned into a pretty good late first-rounder. But the reality is that from the perspective of the Rockets they were trading a late first-rounder, not Omri Casspi. Its hard to kill them for trading a pick that turned into a steal down the road. It's not like they traded a lottery position.

The point is this: Morey is a good GM and he generally doesn't screw up. The stuff being mentioned is picking nits. If he's interested in Fes that's only a positive indicator.

I would be surprised if there weren't at least a handful of GMs who wouldn't have made that trade for Ron Artest.

With that said, it was a good trade for Houston AND a good trade for Sacramento (since they had no intention of keeping Artest).

 

[NCJazz]

I know the anticipation is dramatically building on JazzFanz as Fes only has about a week to decide. Will he or wont he? Stayed tuned as The Fes Turns.

 

[go4jazz]

Last day to sign

October 1st is the last day he has to sign. Until then any and all possibilities will be explored unless the Jazz come off their minimum 1-year qualifying. There is no reason to do otherwise.