Try it then. Ask for a sign. I want to see if you die or not.
How the LDS Church can change their doctrine/policy on LGBT
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Try it then. Ask for a sign. I want to see if you die or not.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
were are you on theism at this point? theist or anti-theist? (or something else I can't think of...)
A don't give a **** ist. Definitely not anti-theist though.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Don't feel any pressure to clarify, but I'm curious why you're "definitely not anti-theist"
I don't see the point anymore than I see the point of one Christian denomination attacking another. I also don't care to convert others away from their religion. I think they, in general, teach a decent moral value system.
I also find it tactless to attack something people hold sacred.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
gotcha. Thanks.
Just because I ask for something doesn't mean I will get it lol.
Maybe he will whack me in some really bizarre way. 1,000s of squirrels devour me or something.
Best post of the thread.
I'm not sure I've found all the answers to these questions. .. .. matters still under review. . . . further questions always come up whenever I think I find one answer.
Honestly, I would have to say I don't really know if God approves of any of my beliefs. . . well, not for sure. It's like global warming..... once I think I've found some "settled science", doubts walk in the door. Like the fact that even though temperatures have risen, and CO2 has risen correspondingly, there's this annoying "noise" in the data, and the fact that every ice age we've got any data on has had a short-temp temp spike just before onset. And, clearly, whatever the driving forces in the pattern we have seen, it's clear that an ice age has a stronger force than CO2 ambient values.
If I see a religion blatantly modifying doctrines to win increases in revenues, I get disgusted. If I see a valid scientific issue exploited to increase governmental powers and revenues, I get disgusted just as well
with my empirical experience in the faith department, I have to say I have no question that God and angels exist, and that I owe my life to them in many ways. When I look out on the world, or when I study science, I literally "see" the reality of a "Life Force" promoting a sort of "progress" in the universe, I see a set of laws which might be the laws which are obeyed by the "Gods" or "Angels" or that "Life Force", but I can't determine the origin of those laws, and I realize many Western religious traditions attribute all existence to the work of God, and that even the older religions posit some kind of underlying reality and our place in it as being a progression towards "enlightenment" or unity with the cosmos.
Being in a car somersaulting in the air twenty feet above the ground, and having some kind of force take control, give me a sense of calm, and land the damn thing on its wheels can really shake up a kid who believes in nothing but science. And when I read of George Washington in combat, and accounts of people later saying how they had such good shots at him they couldn't believe they missed, and such, and my Korean war brother in law saying the same sort of thing in his experience in battles where most of his unit were killed, I have to say I have no scientific explanation, and I give "God" the credit.
Mormonism is the craziest religion in some respects, but on a whole, the Mormons have been decent in their actions towards others. Whatever their doctrines on race or specialness, folks like my mom never hesitated to help anyone in need. My grandfather was the mission president in South Africa in 1900, and he wrote to Salt Lake wanting to baptize the blacks and do other stuff for them, and described their faith in God in his observation and experience. The GAs responded simply asking if the same prejudices existed in South Africa as existed in our own country, more or less implying that if the Church did those things the government of South Africa would kick us out again, like they did in the 1860s.
I have some notions of my own about what is good progress, and yes indeed I think some changes are for the better. My set of notions, of course, is quite different from many others' sets.
I like good roads, and plenty of electricity to power equipment, and plenty of alternative sources of useable energy. Nuclear power, even. I like water, lots of water. I'd go whole hog on a huge desalination project that would enable the deserts of the Southwest and the north of Mexico to be a new "California" ten times the size of the Central Valley of California.
I don't want a government establishing approved or settled human beliefs.
I do want all humans to have the same rights, and equal protection under our laws.
I've been suspecting that you're my second ex-wife, the one who was a member of the LDS Church, but who knew nothing about it. And yes, she lived in her mom's basement, but had one child. She was gorgeous, but I was no fun. She was one of the most thoroughly decent people I've ever known, but she didn't tell me how to make her happy like my wife of 15 years does. That is a necessary skill required for enduring much of me.
She voted for Clinton, and worked for the head of the Utah Democratic Party. Some years later I tried to get someone on the ballot for the Dem primaries, and was told "No, this is a private Party, and we only allow people we want on our ticket". That was when I was done with the Dems.
The Clintons fundamentally transformed the Democratic Party into a Chicago-style protection racket owned by the same corporate billionaires who have owned the Republican Party for over a a hundred and fifty years.
If you can follow my meandering line here, it ends up with the conclusion that I can see your point of view pretty clearly, and I just think it takes a lot of idealism to hold it. A lot of nice people do stuff like that. I myself thought the same thing until recently, that the LDS would just cave when the laws change on gay marriage.
I don't think so now, because there has been a fundamental reaction in America, a great divide. If the LDS Church goes with the don-religious folks and the government on this one, it is just finished. So either we will have religious tolerance for differing views on this issue, or we will have the LDS shoulder to shoulder with the most fundamental bible thumpers.
The Progressives have also abandoned their successful principle of gradualism, I note.
I have not been anyone's first wife, much less second. I don't believe in polygamy.
I did not mean to imply that I thought the church would change their doctrine any time soon, but I believe it will happen eventually (maybe 25 years). It just takes the intolerant older folks to die off and the more tolerant younger folks to gain power. Yes, there is a great divide and it won't be easy to overcome. It is obvious that we haven't yet fully overcome racial divisions, so I understand that it takes time.
FYI - I will put my knowledge of the LDS church up against anyone's. I may not always win, but I'm a pretty safe bet.
fishonjazz
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I'm still technically active LDS, but my faith has eroded in a big way over the past few years. A lot of it has to do with policy (past and present) but it also stems from the hugely conflicted characterizations of God that permeate the teachings. Sometimes God is an endless fountain of mercy and compassion, filled with unconditional love for each of his kajillion flawed children, other times he is a hair-triggered, vengeful hardass who will abide no monkey business or tomfoolery. I'm not sure I want to spend my eternity at the right hand of a God with a bipolar disorder.
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This is, in large part, why I hate religion.
I've found having a non-religious relationship with God is far superior to having others tell me how to do it.