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I want the Jazz to lose.

I have hardly been watching this year. But I get score updates on my phone. I was bummed last night when we were up big, and fist pumped when I got the final score notification.

It is what it is.
 
@Tremendous Upside apparently doesn’t believe his own words. He still hasn’t responded to my bet, and I ain’t letting it go. But I guess all he has to do is stay silent till after the trade deadline. So let’s see if you can take two weeks of me pestering you.
 
cctrackstar said:
No, not games, i want them to lose everything. their fanbase, the players they draft, their coach. everything. I've been alive a long time, and i find that honesty is top three most important things in life and tanking reeks of dishonesty. the fact that they can't outright declare it publicly, the fact that the coach talks about effort and trying at the same time as a third of the team is out for mysterious injuries, it's lying. lies. mamma told me not to lie. a bunch of times. these are multi million dollar contracts these guys are playing for, and they are either lying or being lied to. in the business world that's called fraud.

ok, i get it, that's the way the whole nba works, but again, they can't admit it because they would get reprimanded by the league, so the teams are corrupt, not the league. so i feel the same way about all of the teams that do it. yup, i'm not only am i not a jazz fan, i'm not an nba fan any more. i still like a few select players, but i doubt they remain on the team, whether they leave because the team sucks or because they are traded for other player that will leave the team because they suck.

i've said it before, i'd rather root for a decent team that has players who came her legitimately and want to be here than an imaginary finals team that we got by lying to the entire fanbase and cheating the system.
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You say you’re not an NBA fan anymore. But that’s how the cookie crumbles in the NBA and has crumbled for a long time. Teams tank to get a shot at drafting top players. As far as “mysterious injuries,” teams use various tactics to tank, but lying about injuries isn’t one of them (or at least it would be rare) because the league imposes penalties for false health/medical reports/statements.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Might be a bit of mental gymnastics here, but I never "root" for the Jazz to play badly. I just hope the other team makes shots. I still like when Jazz players make good plays.
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an underrated aspect of tanking that i think too many people overlook is that coaches and players don't tank. that win last night only hurt NOP - it did them zero good. yet CJ was still out there giving it everything, dropped 45 and the coach left him in there to do it.

i will admit that coaches will sit guys or hold guys out - at the behest of the front office - but he's coaching the hell out of the guys out on the floor.
 
NAOS_pt2 said:
It feels like some people need to be reminded that a proper tank involves more than just losing games. It also involves getting your contracts lined up to expire at the right times and in the right amounts. Being a good team is about more than just acquiring talent. It's also about having the ability to control the retention of talent and/or trade talent in the right combos in order to add to the team.

In other words, a proper tank isn't as easy as "lose games."
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Though I agree with the importance of much of this process, I just can't agree with you that "tanking" is really anything more than (usually purposeful) losing with hopes of doing better in the future.

All this other stuff is just part of good team management. I don't see it as inherent to tanking. Maybe it's better called "rebuilding." If you decide to lose (especially more than your talent warrants) with hopes of becoming better in the future, you can manage it better or worse, but it's still tanking.

And, as with all NBA team management, you need a great deal of luck (and often skill) to turn a tank into championship contention.

San Antonio didn't do anything special in terms of team management that I'm aware of. They were just bad for a while, then were super lucky in one of the years when it really mattered (14% chance and got Wemby), then lost a bunch more when Wemby was a rookie (because they were still trying to lose on purpose) and then got Castle. I don't see great non-losing "tanking" moves that they made. I guess they got some extra draft choices, but it's really only the Wemby luck that's the cause of everyone saying that tanking paid off for them.
 
idiot said:
Though I agree with the importance of much of this process, I just can't agree with you that "tanking" is really anything more than (usually purposeful) losing with hopes of doing better in the future.

All this other stuff is just part of good team management. I don't see it as inherent to tanking. Maybe it's better called "rebuilding" If you decide to lose (especially more than your talent warrants) with hopes of becoming better in the future, you can manage it better or worse, but it's still tanking.

And, as with all NBA team management, you need a great deal of luck (and often skill) to turn a tank into championship contention.

San Antonio didn't do anything special in terms of team management that I'm aware of. They were just bad for a while, then were super lucky in one of the years when it really mattered (14% chance and got Wemby), then lost a bunch more when Wemby was a rookie (because they were still trying to lose on purpose) and then got Castle. I don't great non-losing "tanking" moves that they made. I guess they got some extra draft choices, but it's really only the Wemby luck that's the cause of everyone saying that tanking paid off for them.
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ok, it's semantics. But if you want to get semantic, then I said "proper tank", iirc.
 
fishonjazz said:
Ah and you think that if the jazz tried to win all the games this season then these players would have playoff success.
I see why you are confused now.
Those players have been on non tanking teams in the past and had the same amount of playoff success as they are going to have on this tanking team.
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I said nothing of the sort.

You commented to @jazznik with a message tha paraphrased was: all those players need to just suck it up, lose, lose, and lose some more, because they have fat contracts so that's all they need.

Even though someone has made it into the NBA and signed massive contracts, doesn't mean they view that as success. Some might, doubt that Lauri & Collin do.
 
NAOS_pt2 said:
ok, it's semantics. But if you want to get semantic, then I said "proper tank", iirc.
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Yeah you're right about semantics. We sometimes talk past each other.

But when I hear "tank" I hear "(purposefully) lose to try to get good lotto odds" (and I think there's lots of threads, tweets, and other usage from around the NBA to back me up); I don't hear "properly manage a rebuild." I just don't think you're going to change my mind on this.
 
idiot said:
Yeah you're right about semantics. We sometimes talk past each other.

But when I hear "tank" I hear "(purposefully) lose to try to get good lotto odds" (and I think there's lots of threads, tweets, and other usage from around the NBA to back me up); I don't hear "properly manage a rebuild." I just don't think you're going to change my mind on this.
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Tanking is a strategy, and all strategies have a context. Talent acquisition, talent retention, and team building are that context.
 
Tanktastic said:
I said nothing of the sort.

You commented to @jazznik with a message tha paraphrased was: all those players need to just suck it up, lose, lose, and lose some more, because they have fat contracts so that's all they need.

Even though someone has made it into the NBA and signed massive contracts, doesn't mean they view that as success. Some might, doubt that Lauri & Collin do.
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Lauri literally choose to stay with this team that he knew was tanking lol.
If he wanted success in the way you think he does then he should have bounced.
 
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This season is an absolute disgrace. It's pretty much killed any interest I've had in both the Jazz and the NBA, which is painful as watching the Jazz was a joyous occasion, even when they weren't good or could never reach the cusp of the championship.

Now it's pure unadulterated garbage out there, with a team actively trying to lose. I mean, I get the idea of tanking, but at this point why bother with playing these guys at all. Just forfeit every game, it would be less painful than the product on the court.
 
Nate505 said:
This season is an absolute disgrace. It's pretty much killed any interest I've had in both the Jazz and the NBA, which is painful as watching the Jazz was a joyous occasion, even when they weren't good or could never reach the cusp of the championship.

Now it's pure unadulterated garbage out there, with a team actively trying to lose. I mean, I get the idea of tanking, but at this point why bother with playing these guys at all. Just forfeit every game, it would be less painful than the product on the court.
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Would be pretty sweet if we could just forfeit every game tbh. Also would be nice to be able to fast forward the season.
 
NAOS_pt2 said:
Tanking is a strategy, and all strategies have a context. Talent acquisition, talent retention, and team building are that context.
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I'm really not sure what this means. "Talent acquisition, talent retention, and team building" are what every team tries to do. There's nothing exclusive to tanking about these.

Context implies the setting for something. These elements aren't the setting. They're part of the strategy. They have no special connection to tanking; they're strategies that all teams are involved with. There's nothing here to distinguish between tanking and non-tanking. I think it's more correct to say that tanking is a tactic within a larger strategy of talent acquisition, talent retention, and team building. It isn't a full-fledged strategy by itself.
 
For those who want to say that tanking is much broader than just purposive losing (to benefit in the draft), consider which types of the following sentences you've heard recently or that even make sense in normal usage:
  • "Our tank is going great, though we're not losing very much." (No one says this, except sarcastically)
  • "We've got 3 teams in the tank race this year: Washington, Utah, and Brooklyn. Everyone else with bad records is just bad. (You don't hear this because everyone who's bad is in the tank race regardless of what "strategy" with signings, acquisitions, cap space, etc. they're following).
  • "I wouldn't mind seeing Sexton on the next iteration of a winning Jazz team, but we need to trade him, so we can tank." (This one makes sense, because tanking's all about the win/loss record)
  • The 2022-23 Spurs were bad at tanking because 27-year old journeyman Keita Bates-Diop played in the second most games of all players and played the second-most minutes per game. (All that matters is they lost a lot and got Wemby in the draft after that season.)
  • "The Thunder kept Kenrich Williams because they were tanking." (No one says that, because keeping Kenrich Williams jeopardized their winning percentage. It would make much more sense to say that the Thunder kept Kenrich Williams in spite of their tanking."
  • "We're doing great at the tank because our youngsters are playing a major role in helping us win. (While the success of the youth might be solace if we had a .400 winning percentage, nobody would say this. It would be much more common to hear, "Our youngsters are too good; they're preventing us from tanking.")
In other words, tanking, in the way that we normally use the term, is all about the losing (especially in order to try to bolster the draft pick.)
 
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This is a tough season because from a win loss perspective it is going great. Unfortunately from a player development standpoint it has been a serious mixed bag. We lose Hendricks right away so no development there and maybe never with that bad of an injury. Cody has been about as bad of a rookie as you can possibly. Key hasn't improved at all. On the bright side Brice, Collier and Flip are showing some flashes and Kessler seems to have shaken off his 2nd year slump. One thing that is crystal clear right now is that we desperately need that star wing and no one on our current roster can get to that level and it sure as hell isn't coming from free agency so the draft is our best shot.
 
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