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I want the Jazz to lose.

For those who want to say that tanking is much broader than just purposive losing (to benefit in the draft), consider which types of the following sentences you've heard recently or that even make sense in normal usage:
  • "Our tank is going great, though we're not losing very much." (No one says this, except sarcastically)
  • "We've got 3 teams in the tank race this year: Washington, Utah, and Brooklyn. Everyone else with bad records is just bad. (You don't hear this because everyone who's bad is in the tank race regardless of what "strategy" with signings, acquisitions, cap space, etc. they're following).
  • "I wouldn't mind seeing Sexton on the next iteration of a winning Jazz team, but we need to trade him, so we can tank." (This one makes sense, because tanking's all about the win/loss record)
  • The 2022-23 Spurs were bad at tanking because 27-year old journeyman Keita Bates-Diop played in the second most games of all players and played the second-most minutes per game. (All that matters is they lost a lot and got Wemby in the draft after that season.)
  • "The Thunder kept Kenrich Williams because they were tanking." (No one says that, because keeping Kenrich Williams jeopardized their winning percentage. It would make much more sense to say that the Thunder kept Kenrich Williams in spite of their tanking."
  • "We're doing great at the tank because our youngsters are playing a major role in helping us win. (While the success of the youth might be solace if we had a .400 winning percentage, nobody would say this. It would be much more common to hear, "Our youngsters are too good; they're preventing us from tanking.")
In other words, tanking, in the way that we normally use the term, is all about the losing (especially in order to try to bolster the draft pick.)
I try to politely bow out of conversations once they get into semantics. There's very little point in spending mental bandwidth on these issues. But it struck me as very odd that you've just marshaled together evidence for your position, and all of it reads like a synopsis of message-board chat. This reads like a weird set of avatars. Who is "we"?

I couldn't care less about fans' reactions.

There are, of course, poorly run teams. But I feel totally safe in the assumption that there's not a single front office that thinks that intentionally losing games is something that works in isolation. Intentionally losing is always embedded in a team development strategy that spans seasons, contract lengths, etc. They may not get lucky enough or execute their plans effectively, but that's not the point. The point is the intention.

In your post above the quoted one, you say " 'Talent acquisition, talent retention, and team building' are what every team tries to do. There's nothing exclusive to tanking about these." The non-exclusivity of these actions is precisely my point.

You're a good poster. Thanks for writing good content. It's ok that we're on different pages here.
 
This is a tough season because from a win loss perspective it is going great. Unfortunately from a player development standpoint it has been a serious mixed bag. We lose Hendricks right away so no development there and maybe never with that bad of an injury. Cody has been about as bad of a rookie as you can possibly. Key hasn't improved at all. On the bright side Brice, Collier and Flip are showing some flashes and Kessler seems to have shaken off his 2nd year slump. One thing that is crystal clear right now is that we desperately need that star wing and no one on our current roster can get to that level and it sure as hell isn't coming from free agency so the draft is our best shot.
LMAO you're dumb as hell if you think Keyonte hasnt improved at all.
 
I try to politely bow out of conversations once they get into semantics. There's very little point in spending mental bandwidth on these issues. But it struck me as very odd that you've just marshaled together evidence for your position, and all of it reads like a synopsis of message-board chat. This reads like a weird set of avatars. Who is "we"?

I couldn't care less about fans' reactions.

There are, of course, poorly run teams. But I feel totally safe in the assumption that there's not a single front office that thinks that intentionally losing games is something that works in isolation. Intentionally losing is always embedded in a team development strategy that spans seasons, contract lengths, etc. They may not get lucky enough or execute their plans effectively, but that's not the point. The point is the intention.

In your post above the quoted one, you say " 'Talent acquisition, talent retention, and team building' are what every team tries to do. There's nothing exclusive to tanking about these." The non-exclusivity of these actions is precisely my point.

You're a good poster. Thanks for writing good content. It's ok that we're on different pages here.
Thank you for the polite reply. Yes, we're on somewhat different pages, and that's OK.

I agree that FOs don't just rush headlong into losing -- that there's always something deeper involved with their plans (even if not executed well or apparent to fans on the surface). So we'll disagree about where the "tanking" label is appropriately used.
 
LMAO you're dumb as hell if you think Keyonte hasnt improved at all.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But how would you characterize Key's improvement?

From today's ESPN Power Rankings:
"Guard Keyonte George has spent a majority of his two NBA seasons as a starter but needs to improve his production to make a convincing case to secure his spot in the Jazz's lineup. George has ranked last in defensive box plus-minus since arriving in the NBA and is extremely inefficient on offense (48.7 effective field goal percentage, 17.1 turnover percentage). -- MacMahon"
 
I'm not disagreeing with you. But how would you characterize Key's improvement?

From today's ESPN Power Rankings:
"Guard Keyonte George has spent a majority of his two NBA seasons as a starter but needs to improve his production to make a convincing case to secure his spot in the Jazz's lineup. George has ranked last in defensive box plus-minus since arriving in the NBA and is extremely inefficient on offense (48.7 effective field goal percentage, 17.1 turnover percentage). -- MacMahon"
Mostly his defensive effort and body language after bad plays.
 
Well, Andy Larsen, of all people, seems to have come around on the proposition that tanking needs to stop (be disincentivized).

Sorry to to those who can't read the article, but basic argument is:
  • Still agrees tanking is the right move for the Jazz, given where the team sits and how incentives currently exist in NBA
  • Acknowledges previously underestimating the wrongness of how tanking feels now being close to it, seeing effect on players
  • Discussed with Markkanen possibilities of making the system better; eventually they came around to the conclusion that draft position has to be decoupled from draft record (differential effect on small market teams be damned)
  • Ending thoughts: "At this point, though? I’m willing to sacrifice that path [having tanking available as a path for improvement] for the good of the game, for the good of the league. For the good of players like Markkanen and Mills who deserve to have their careers defined by passionate play, not dispassionate sitting. It’s time for the NBA to make radical changes. It’s time to eliminate tanking, once and for all."
 
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Well, Andy Larsen, of all people, seems to have come around on the proposition that tanking needs to stop (be disincentivized).

Sorry to to those who can't read the article, but basic argument is:
  • Still agrees tanking is the right move given where the team sits and how incentives currently exist in NBA
  • Acknowledges previously underestimating the wrongness of how tanking feels now being close to it, seeing effect on players
  • Discussed with Markkanen possibilities of making the system better; eventually they came around to the conclusion that draft position has to be decoupled from draft record (differential effect on small market teams be damned)
  • Ending thoughts: "At this point, though? I’m willing to sacrifice that path [having tanking available as a path for improvement] for the good of the game, for the good of the league. For the good of players like Markkanen and Mills who deserve to have their careers defined by passionate play, not dispassionate sitting. It’s time for the NBA to make radical changes. It’s time to eliminate tanking, once and for all."
He, as some here have done, seemed to be preferring the wheel idea.

I agree that it has a lot going for it in terms of long term fairness. But I want to just point to a possible downside that I haven't seen many people discuss: the planning around the pre-known wheel results that prospective top draftees may engage in.

Suppose, for example a "generational prospect" of the age to come out in 2038 sees that the Jazz have the top pick that year and that the Lakers have the top pick in 2039. It doesn't take a genius to see what might happen. Picking your team for players at the very top of the heap becomes more likely when draft positions are known well in advance as compared to the current system.
 
LMAO you're dumb as hell if you think Keyonte hasnt improved at all.

Key is basically the same player he was last year. That doesn't mean I don't like him and think he will get better but I have been disappointed with his lack of improvement to this point. There is a lot of season left though for him to get on track so hopefully it happens.
 
Key is basically the same player he was last year. That doesn't mean I don't like him and think he will get better but I have been disappointed with his lack of improvement to this point. There is a lot of season left though for him to get on track so hopefully it happens.
You must not watch games and just look at stats
 
Well, Andy Larsen, of all people, seems to have come around on the proposition that tanking needs to stop (be disincentivized).

Sorry to to those who can't read the article, but basic argument is:
  • Still agrees tanking is the right move for the Jazz, given where the team sits and how incentives currently exist in NBA
  • Acknowledges previously underestimating the wrongness of how tanking feels now being close to it, seeing effect on players
  • Discussed with Markkanen possibilities of making the system better; eventually they came around to the conclusion that draft position has to be decoupled from draft record (differential effect on small market teams be damned)
  • Ending thoughts: "At this point, though? I’m willing to sacrifice that path [having tanking available as a path for improvement] for the good of the game, for the good of the league. For the good of players like Markkanen and Mills who deserve to have their careers defined by passionate play, not dispassionate sitting. It’s time for the NBA to make radical changes. It’s time to eliminate tanking, once and for all."
I'm reasonably confident that the NBA suits are highly concerned about tanking. As the above also notes, and which to this point has been underdiscussed, it's also detrimental to the careers of the many players who are collateral damage to the tank, e.g., Lauri. I don't think anyone would blame him if the tanking drags on he came out and said something like, "Play me or trade me" or "Play to win or trade me." Careers all have a time stamp on them, and spending up to one-quarter of your career on teams trying to lose and being held out of games for the purpose has got to be frustrating.

Not only does it threaten the integrity of the game, but it's optics are horrible, and it figures prominently in NBA discourse, such as articles, blogs, podcasts, etc. While I understand the strategic thinking behind it, my view is that the league needs to find ways to disincentivize this strategy.

Decoupling draft position from record seems one of the more obvious ways. The wheel is one approach. Giving any team only X number of years in the lottery before they cycle out, automatically rotating teams to the back of the lottery if they remain there past a certain point, or something else. I don't have the solution, and each will have second-hand casualties. But, while tanking may be a viable strategy for teams (for which I have some doubts), it's neither a viable nor sustainable strategy for the league as a whole.
 
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I'm reasonably confident that the NBA suits are highly concerned about tanking. As the above also notes, and which to this point has been underdiscussed, it's also detrimental to the careers of the many players who are collateral damage to the tank, e.g., Lauri.
I agree tanking is terrible for his career. But he chose to sign that contract. He chose to prevent a trade this season.

Lauri knew the Jazz were going for a full-on tank this year. He could have pushed for a trade at any point when his value was sky high.
 
I agree tanking is terrible for his career. But he chose to sign that contract. He chose to prevent a trade this season.

Lauri knew the Jazz were going for a full-on tank this year. He could have pushed for a trade at any point when his value was sky high.

You're right, of course. If I were to offer him an out, it would be that the amount of money offered is akin to a golden handcuff. He'll be disgruntled in his golden retraints, I guess. Anyone who criticizes him for taking that kind of money despite knowing the state of things has never been offered that kind of money

Still, I imagine that he didn't bargain for endless tanking or endless sucking. At some point, he's going to want to play meaningful basketball. When that happens, I hope he ups his game. He's been kind of a disappointment this year.
 
How did the Spurs get Wemby?

Exactly.

No pain, no gain.
Nope, it is the NBA conspiracy, and I am fully invested. The NBA wants the storied franchises to have the best players, so the Spurs get the best and only generational prospect in a draft YET AGAIN. Third time in their history. Yep. That's what up.
 
You must not watch games and just look at stats
It's rare that stats and what you see on court don't line up. And when that rare instance happens it's usually with a player like Rudy Gobert where they do the little things that don't show up in the stats (screen assists, deterring dudes from shooting in the paint, tipping out rebounds to teammates etc)
 
You're right, of course. If I were to offer him an out, it would be that the amount of money offered is akin to a golden handcuff. He'll be disgruntled in his golden retraints, I guess. Anyone who criticizes him for taking that kind of money despite knowing the state of things has never been offered that kind of money

Still, I imagine that he didn't bargain for endless tanking or endless sucking. At some point, he's going to want to play meaningful basketball. When that happens, I hope he ups his game. He's been kind of a disappointment this year.
Lauri could have taken the same money and made himself available to be traded. He chose the route where he can't be traded so either he was down to tank or he is an idiot.
 
I'm reasonably confident that the NBA suits are highly concerned about tanking. As the above also notes, and which to this point has been underdiscussed, it's also detrimental to the careers of the many players who are collateral damage to the tank, e.g., Lauri. I don't think anyone would blame him if the tanking drags on he came out and said something like, "Play me or trade me" or "Play to win or trade me." Careers all have a time stamp on them, and spending up to one-quarter of your career on teams trying to lose and being held out of games for the purpose has got to be frustrating.

Not only does it threaten the integrity of the game, but it's optics are horrible, and it figures prominently in NBA discourse, such as articles, blogs, podcasts, etc. While I understand the strategic thinking behind it, my view is that the league needs to find ways to disincentivize this strategy.

Decoupling draft position from record seems one of the more obvious ways. The wheel is one approach. Giving any team only X number of years in the lottery before they cycle out, automatically rotating teams to the back of the lottery if they remain there past a certain point, or something else. I don't have the solution, and each will have second-hand casualties. But, while tanking may be a viable strategy for teams (for which I have some doubts), it's neither a viable nor sustainable strategy for the league as a whole.
Yeah, it’s a problem. But criticizing the league for it is just talk unless you’ve got a solution that’s better than what’s already in place. The issue is complex. And we’d be wrong to think the league hasn’t tried hard to solve it or that they won’t have other cracks at it.
 
You're right, of course. If I were to offer him an out, it would be that the amount of money offered is akin to a golden handcuff. He'll be disgruntled in his golden retraints, I guess. Anyone who criticizes him for taking that kind of money despite knowing the state of things has never been offered that kind of money

Still, I imagine that he didn't bargain for endless tanking or endless sucking. At some point, he's going to want to play meaningful basketball. When that happens, I hope he ups his game. He's been kind of a disappointment this year.
Lauri hasn’t changed. Just look at how our guards (except Collier) play, and you can see why Lauri’s FG attempts are down. Put Lauri on a team that moves the ball, and he'll shine as before.
 
Lauri could have taken the same money and made himself available to be traded. He chose the route where he can't be traded so either he was down to tank or he is an idiot.

That's a lot of assumptions about Lauri's state of mind, what was told him during negotiations, and what other factors contributed to his decision. Life rarely presents such clear binary explanations.
 
Yeah, it’s a problem. But criticizing the league for it is just talk unless you’ve got a solution that’s better than what’s already in place. The issue is complex. And we’d be wrong to think the league hasn’t tried hard to solve it or that they won’t have other cracks at it.

The argument that "one can't offer criticism unless one can also offer solutions" is silly. It's a common rhetorical device used by people to deflect criticism, shut down opposition, and spare them the bother of crafting a counterargument. People can be reasonably astute at identifying that a problem exists but simultaneously lack the information or hubris to pretend to have the answer. (Mostly when they DO think they have the answer, it is uninformed hubris.) For example, it doesn't take a genius to recognize that homelessness is a problem; however, this line of reasoning would preclude anyone from stating this unless they had a solution for it. Good luck with that.

But you're right. The situation is complex. I don't have an answer. I have some ideas, but I haven't studied it or thought about it enough to pretend I know the answer. But I do believe a problem exists. I recognize fully that the current system incentivizes it, and I don't blame teams for doing it. However, I dislike it intensely. I think it hurts the credibility of the league, produces an unentertaining product, is a disservice to fans, and yields questionable efficacy (depending on what its objectives are).
 
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