If the Jazz had Phil or Pat or ??? Would we have a ring?
- Thread starter vegas
- Start date
Maybe. Maybe not. It is as hypothetical as the question "would we have won a ring if we had Jordan?" Can you imagine Jordan in Utah?
I have a difficult time even imagining those guys coming to Utah and coaching here. They are the antithesis of Sloan personality-wise, high profile guys who talk a lot and want to attract attention to themselves and are media-hogging. Tough to see them in a place like Utah.
I have a difficult time even imagining those guys coming to Utah and coaching here. They are the antithesis of Sloan personality-wise, high profile guys who talk a lot and want to attract attention to themselves and are media-hogging. Tough to see them in a place like Utah.
feeko
Well-Known Member
of course! we would AT LEAST have one ring! Over the years sloan's ability to coach with a purpose has been declining steadily. I now see why the man never gets coach of the year. His offense is great, but his coaching sucks. If Jerry Sloan was a good coach, our defensive intensity would be much better, the intensity we bring to the game would be much higher, and our execution would look like it did only last season. I don't understand why our execution has fallen flat and it's obvious sloan hasnt addressed this issue. his substitution patterns are ridiculous. the guy needs to go. I love his plays and the system, but he needs to go. He's getting way too old, he's 70 years old. there's no room for dinosaurs in the nba
You never know. Would another coach have pulled the strings a little differently, and helped us in those crutial Finals games. Would another guy got more out of certain players like Tag, Chris Morris,, etc?
We do know that with Sloan we haven't won the damn thing.
We do know that with Sloan we haven't won the damn thing.
Pat Riley is overrated. He couldn't do it in 4 years with Patrick Ewing in his prime. He only did it with some LA teams that anyone could have coached to victory, and once more in Miami. That Miami team wasn't fodder either. Shaq was only 33 and still good for 20 per, Wade carried that team through the playoffs and put up over 27 that year, and they had an excellent supporting cast.
Absolutely. Prove me wrong.
Sloan is going to go down as the longest tenured coach in professional history to never win a ring. But of course it is not his fault at all. Nope, not a bit. Ignore the fact that Layden had them challenging Magic and company back in 1987 (or 88) and then young Jer set them back 10 years. Its all Jordan's fault, or Isaiah's, or Magic's, or Hakeem's, or Timmy's, or Shaq's, or Kobe's, or the refs, or Malone's, or or or or something. Never blame Sloan.
Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
He's 68.
Phil Jackson must be too old too then right? He's 65.
JAZZFAN_2814
Active Member
The roster's have never been too brilliant. In the late 80s/early 90s they were pretty awful, particularly as regards secondary, backcourt, playmaking and guys with range.
When Utah was built around these concepts, or provided them, the team became an immediate, and obvious contender. Enter Hornacek.
Still, I would agree that, for instance, Sloan did Utah no favors with his rigid nature against a team like Phoenix in 1990. You watch that fifth game, Utah's ahead.
But how? By running. Sloan didn't want that. He stopped that. And Utah stalled in the fourth, losing by a couple points.
The other interesting note from that game is superstar power through facilitation. Thurl Bailey scores quite a few baskets in the fourth, probably more than Malone and Stockton, but everything he gets comes off of their presence and creation.
Sloan's system can do a lot, but it can't do what star players, plural, could within it.
Watching that tape, I question Sloan. But I also question, just as it was to be against Portland, where the rest of the roster talent is on offense. No range. No spacing.
In that sense, Layden's more uptempo style was superior for such a flawed team.
When Utah was built around these concepts, or provided them, the team became an immediate, and obvious contender. Enter Hornacek.
Still, I would agree that, for instance, Sloan did Utah no favors with his rigid nature against a team like Phoenix in 1990. You watch that fifth game, Utah's ahead.
But how? By running. Sloan didn't want that. He stopped that. And Utah stalled in the fourth, losing by a couple points.
The other interesting note from that game is superstar power through facilitation. Thurl Bailey scores quite a few baskets in the fourth, probably more than Malone and Stockton, but everything he gets comes off of their presence and creation.
Sloan's system can do a lot, but it can't do what star players, plural, could within it.
Watching that tape, I question Sloan. But I also question, just as it was to be against Portland, where the rest of the roster talent is on offense. No range. No spacing.
In that sense, Layden's more uptempo style was superior for such a flawed team.
chawx
Active Member
Hell no! Pat and Phil's "coaching" credentials is them talking about players feelings, and kissing superstar *** all day long. The Jazz have never had good enough players (even Stockton and Malone) to have that "style" of coaching win you games. Pat and Phil both needed larger than life GODS to win them championships, GODS that the referees cater to and manipulate games for, no way in hell are Pat or Phil better coaches than Sloan...
The question should be, would Sloan have 24 rings if every year he coaches a Pat Riley or Phil Jackson team? And the answer would be HELL YES HE WOULD!
The question should be, would Sloan have 24 rings if every year he coaches a Pat Riley or Phil Jackson team? And the answer would be HELL YES HE WOULD!
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Let's look at this from more of a basketball standpoint. The 1997 and 1998 Jazz teams lost in the NBA Finals primarily because they couldn't stop Michael Jordan with the game on the line. Well we know Pat Riley couldn't stop Michael Jordan throughout the 90's either - and he had far better defensive players than Utah did.
If Phil Jackson coached the Jazz, I assume he would've had Tex Winter running the triangle and while I think Malone would've been just fine, it would've been a horrible fit for Stockton and Hornacek. Similar to his Bulls teams, Jackson also wouldn't have had a major intimidating presence to go up against bigger, more talented centers than those he had to face in the east - and he also wouldn't have had 3 of the best and longest perimeter defenders to make up for that.
I am definitely a major fan of Jerry Sloan, but I have no problem saying Phil Jackson is a much better coach. However, if anyone can do more than simply look up the number of championships Phil and Riley won, compare them to Sloan's record, and then conclude that by comparing different talent levels, different players, and different eras that the Jazz would've won a championship with either of them, please do so.
If Phil Jackson coached the Jazz, I assume he would've had Tex Winter running the triangle and while I think Malone would've been just fine, it would've been a horrible fit for Stockton and Hornacek. Similar to his Bulls teams, Jackson also wouldn't have had a major intimidating presence to go up against bigger, more talented centers than those he had to face in the east - and he also wouldn't have had 3 of the best and longest perimeter defenders to make up for that.
I am definitely a major fan of Jerry Sloan, but I have no problem saying Phil Jackson is a much better coach. However, if anyone can do more than simply look up the number of championships Phil and Riley won, compare them to Sloan's record, and then conclude that by comparing different talent levels, different players, and different eras that the Jazz would've won a championship with either of them, please do so.
Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
Jordan championships without Phil?
Kobe championships without Phil?
vegas
Well-Known Member
This was so tough for me to wrap my head around that I decided it *might* make a good discussion if people were able to pull in some kind of factual evidence. There are a ton of variables, so I didn't know where to begin. So far there have been some good comments.
Besides different systems, its likely that we trade and draft different players, and obviously players are influenced differently, but what would these be? Who would play worse? Better?
The best thing I can think of is to look at players' performances before/after coming under the wing of whatever great coach. Anybody have some good or bad examples? The only current/former players with a ring that I can find are Elson and Fisher.
I think Jerry is a great coach, but it's close-minded to say he is 'the best'. On the other hand, if he is not the best fit for Utah, what facts support this?
So far, the biggest evidence that another coach would do it is that they have rings and Jerry doesn't. Surely there is more evidence than this, right?
Chawx, thanks for asking the converse question. It is important to consider that in any comment.
Besides different systems, its likely that we trade and draft different players, and obviously players are influenced differently, but what would these be? Who would play worse? Better?
The best thing I can think of is to look at players' performances before/after coming under the wing of whatever great coach. Anybody have some good or bad examples? The only current/former players with a ring that I can find are Elson and Fisher.
I think Jerry is a great coach, but it's close-minded to say he is 'the best'. On the other hand, if he is not the best fit for Utah, what facts support this?
So far, the biggest evidence that another coach would do it is that they have rings and Jerry doesn't. Surely there is more evidence than this, right?
Chawx, thanks for asking the converse question. It is important to consider that in any comment.
Absolutely with Coach Phil Jackson.
Obviously he is a great X's and O's coach. The part of his coaching that does not get hyped as much is his ability to deal with multi-millionaire egos.
He is fantastic at working with Top paid talent that think they know better.
Sloan a few weeks ago said he is no Psychologist and players need to play (I'm paraphrasing). That's the problem. The mind and ability to get the most of your talent IS a mind game. Obviously anybody in the NBA has a ton of skills. How do you motivate ? How do you preach team over individual ? How do you deal with these egos ?
Phil is a master at that. Jerry, to me, is an old school bright X's and O's guy. His non X's and O's skill is what I think preventing him from getting over the hump.
Obviously he is a great X's and O's coach. The part of his coaching that does not get hyped as much is his ability to deal with multi-millionaire egos.
He is fantastic at working with Top paid talent that think they know better.
Sloan a few weeks ago said he is no Psychologist and players need to play (I'm paraphrasing). That's the problem. The mind and ability to get the most of your talent IS a mind game. Obviously anybody in the NBA has a ton of skills. How do you motivate ? How do you preach team over individual ? How do you deal with these egos ?
Phil is a master at that. Jerry, to me, is an old school bright X's and O's guy. His non X's and O's skill is what I think preventing him from getting over the hump.
I hope your arguments are consistent (this isn't necessarily my opinion, just saying if your standards are this high, Sloan is plainly a bum).
PearlWatson
Well-Known Member
Jazz would have won it all had Jordan not come back after his 5th retirement.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Cry me a river bro. Champions don't make excuses.
What's your point... other than trolling?