Is Obama a Natural Born US Citizen?

[One Brow]

With this speech, Obama became the first American president to require that Israel accept its pre-1967 borders as a starting point to negotiations with the Palestinians.

When hasn't this been a requirement? The post-1967 acquisitions would basically be Palestine.

 

[PearlWatson]

When hasn't this been a requirement? The post-1967 acquisitions would basically be Palestine.

Judging from the reaction, never. Post-1967 acquisitions?

Middle East peace deal for Obama: Israel will go back to the borders of 1967 if the U.S. goes back to the federal budget of 1967.

 

[One Brow]

Judging from the reaction, never. Post-1967 acquisitions?

YOu're right, I should have referred to 1967 acquisitons. Yes, the 1967 borders have always been a starting point for negotiations, as acknowledged by most of the serious pundits I've read/heard.

 

[candrew]

Judging from the reaction, never. Post-1967 acquisitions?

Middle East peace deal for Obama: Israel will go back to the borders of 1967 if the U.S. goes back to the federal budget of 1967.

That might be do'able considering the top tax rate in 1967 was about 70% and tax on Capital Gains was 25%.

And the 1967 border treaty is supported by just about everyone in the western world with the exception of The Likud Party in Israel and some portions of the US Media.

 

[PearlWatson]

That might be do'able considering the top tax rate in 1967 was about 70% and tax on Capital Gains was 25%.

And the 1967 border treaty is supported by just about everyone in the western world with the exception of The Likud Party in Israel and some portions of the US Media.

It is doable to go back to government spending @ 248 Billion and a deficit @ 9 billion?

Apparently Obama doesn't support that anymore.

OBAMA: It was my reference to the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps that received the lion's share of the attention, including just now. And since my position has been misrepresented several times, let me reaffirm what 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps means. By definition it means that the parties themselves, Israelis and Palestinians, will negotiate a border that is different than the one that existed on June 4th, 1967. That's what mutually agreed upon swaps means. It is a well-known formula to all who have worked on this issue for a generation.

 

[sirkickyass]

if the U.S. goes back to the federal budget of 1967.

Why stop there? Why not go back to 1783?

To be honest, I've never understood the fascination with Israel. It is simply not an issue that would swing my vote I guess.

 

[PearlWatson]

Why stop there? Why not go back to 1783?

To be honest, I've never understood the fascination with Israel. It is simply not an issue that would swing my vote I guess.

The point obviously flew over your head. Israel can't/won't consider going back to the 1967 borders any more than Obama would consider going back to the 1967 budget.

The fascination has to do with preventing another Jewish genocide. I guess that ain't worthy of your consideration.

 

[sirkickyass]

The point obviously flew over your head. Israel can't/won't consider going back to the 1967 borders any more than Obama would consider going back to the 1967 budget.

No, I understood the point. I just treated it with the seriousness it deserves. Although it does raise a question for you fiscal ultra-hawk types: what year of the federal budget do you think we should be emulating? I suspect '67 aint it, and as a result is a totally arbitrary number.

The fascination has to do with preventing another Jewish genocide. I guess that ain't worthy of your consideration.

Zionism long predates the Holocaust.

 

[PearlWatson]

No, I understood the point. I just treated it with the seriousness it deserves. Although it does raise a question for you fiscal ultra-hawk types: what year of the federal budget do you think we should be emulating? I suspect '67 aint it, and as a result is a totally arbitrary number.

It ain't an arbitrary number in this discussion.

Zionism long predates the Holocaust.

So does the Muslim's desire to kill Jews and Christians.

 

[sirkickyass]

It ain't an arbitrary number in this discussion.

Sure it is. 1967 is a date that means something to a discussion of Israeli politics and borders. It has no special meaning in budgetary politics. It is a random year. That makes it an arbitrary year with no real meaning.

Also, you dodged my question entirely: what year of the federal budget do you think we should be emulating?

So does the Muslim's desire to kill Jews and Christians.

Or the Christian desire to kill Muslims and Jews (Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc). Muslims do not have a monopoly on anti-semitism. Nor have you advanced any reason why the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel is necessary or adequate to prevent future ethnic or religious purges between groups. If anything, it appears to inflame tensions.

 

[The Thriller]

Why stop there? Why not go back to 1783?

To be honest, I've never understood the fascination with Israel. It is simply not an issue that would swing my vote I guess.

Are you being serious? You've never understood the fascination with Israel?

I can understand why it's not an issue that's very important to you. In fact, I could care less about it as well (and I'm decently religious).

However, to many nutcakes, it's a huge issue:

#1 For Christians, many believe that it's going to be the site of the "Apocalypse." To Christians, Jesus Christ will come again once many nations of the world make war against Israel (again for the billionth time). He'll save them (references in revelation... I cannot remember all the chapters... I can find some if you're actually interested).
#2 For Jews, they believe in a sort of coming together. Their established estate is a sign that the Messiah, their general, liberator, and savior, is on his way to appear for the (1st time). Of course, these types of feelings have been felt before. After Jews escaped Egypt, they felt great blessings were in store for them in the promised land. And to an extent, they were greatly blessed. A decently wealthy nation that never really became an empire. But survived for a while. Then, new feelings of retribution after Cyrus the Great captured Babylon and allowed Jewish exiles to go back to Jerusalem.

Perhaps the most notable instance of nationalism came at the time of Christ. Their nation looking for someone to release them from the bonds of Caesar. Instead, the ax came down, and haven't enjoyed being a nation until last century.

(https://www.christianet.com/isaiah/gatheringofisrael.htm) and (Isiah 27)

#3 Muslims. Don't they believe that Mohammad is coming back?

anyway, a lot of Jews, many powerful in America, don't want to see Israel give up anything.
Americans, many of them, know nothing of the situation other than "Muslims" were responsible for 9/11 and high oil prices. Many, especially conservatives, feel that Obama is merely being a coward, bowing to Muslims (which many believe he still is), disrespecting our #1 ally in the ME, and taking away America's prestige as *** kicker by appearing to be in support of "hurting" Israel to "help" Palestine.
Christians, have fought over that region for years.
And Muslims don't want to give an inch.

In my opinion,

#1 Peace never has and never will "break out" in the ME.
#2 Israel, for years, has ridden the wave of the Holocaust to live off American and European dollars. It's time to stop. Holocaust sucked. Now get over it and let me keep my tax dollars please. If you cannot exist on your own then you aren't worth existing.
#3 Israel has had foreign military support for years. And has abused these powers. Everyone in the ME knew that if you messed w/Israel, big Brother would come and beat everyone else up. Out of desperation and frustration with this, terrorism in the ME against the USA has risen.
#4 Israel oftentimes builds huge and ridiculous buildings while neglecting the impoverished Palestinians literally living across the street in many cases. Not exactly endearing themselves to anyone (other than themselves).
#5 Muslims oftentimes are laid back and don't speak out as much as they should about terrorism. The media can also distort how they're portrayed as well. No surprise that Jewish controlled Hollywood doesn't produce any films that would help generate sympathy towards Muslims.
#6 the USA needs to pull out (that's what she said). Lets get the hell out of all these alliances, foreign aid, military spending, and focus on education and health care. Let France screw themselves with Libya. Let Iraq kill itself off. Let Afghans live as cavemen for the next thousand years. Lets join the rest of the industrialized world and get health care and education available to all. Lets get off oil too.

Unfortunately, Christians don't want to see that. As if we're compromising to those evil Muslims. Jews don't want to do that, they control many aspects of our country. And conservatives don't want to see any compromise, because USA kicks ***, Obama is black, guns are good, and Muslims are terrorists.

#7 Jews, Muslims, and Christians cannot work together. thousands of years have proven this fact.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Are you being serious? You've never understood the fascination with Israel?

I can understand why it's not an issue that's very important to you. In fact, I could care less about it as well (and I'm decently religious).

However, to many nutcakes, it's a huge issue:

#1 For Christians, many believe that it's going to be the site of the "Apocalypse." To Christians, Jesus Christ will come again once many nations of the world make war against Israel (again for the billionth time). He'll save them (references in revelation... I cannot remember all the chapters... I can find some if you're actually interested).
#2 For Jews, they believe in a sort of coming together. Their established estate is a sign that the Messiah, their general, liberator, and savior, is on his way to appear for the (1st time). Of course, these types of feelings have been felt before. After Jews escaped Egypt, they felt great blessings were in store for them in the promised land. And to an extent, they were greatly blessed. A decently wealthy nation that never really became an empire. But survived for a while. Then, new feelings of retribution after Cyrus the Great captured Babylon and allowed Jewish exiles to go back to Jerusalem.

Perhaps the most notable instance of nationalism came at the time of Christ. Their nation looking for someone to release them from the bonds of Caesar. Instead, the ax came down, and haven't enjoyed being a nation until last century.

(https://www.christianet.com/isaiah/gatheringofisrael.htm) and (Isiah 27)

#3 Muslims. Don't they believe that Mohammad is coming back?

anyway, a lot of Jews, many powerful in America, don't want to see Israel give up anything.
Americans, many of them, know nothing of the situation other than "Muslims" were responsible for 9/11 and high oil prices. Many, especially conservatives, feel that Obama is merely being a coward, bowing to Muslims (which many believe he still is), disrespecting our #1 ally in the ME, and taking away America's prestige as *** kicker by appearing to be in support of "hurting" Israel to "help" Palestine.
Christians, have fought over that region for years.
And Muslims don't want to give an inch.

In my opinion,

#1 Peace never has and never will "break out" in the ME.
#2 Israel, for years, has ridden the wave of the Holocaust to live off American and European dollars. It's time to stop. Holocaust sucked. Now get over it and let me keep my tax dollars please. If you cannot exist on your own then you aren't worth existing.
#3 Israel has had foreign military support for years. And has abused these powers. Everyone in the ME knew that if you messed w/Israel, big Brother would come and beat everyone else up. Out of desperation and frustration with this, terrorism in the ME against the USA has risen.
#4 Israel oftentimes builds huge and ridiculous buildings while neglecting the impoverished Palestinians literally living across the street in many cases. Not exactly endearing themselves to anyone (other than themselves).
#5 Muslims oftentimes are laid back and don't speak out as much as they should about terrorism. The media can also distort how they're portrayed as well. No surprise that Jewish controlled Hollywood doesn't produce any films that would help generate sympathy towards Muslims.
#6 the USA needs to pull out (that's what she said). Lets get the hell out of all these alliances, foreign aid, military spending, and focus on education and health care. Let France screw themselves with Libya. Let Iraq kill itself off. Let Afghans live as cavemen for the next thousand years. Lets join the rest of the industrialized world and get health care and education available to all. Lets get off oil too.

Unfortunately, Christians don't want to see that. As if we're compromising to those evil Muslims. Jews don't want to do that, they control many aspects of our country. And conservatives don't want to see any compromise, because USA kicks ***, Obama is black, guns are good, and Muslims are terrorists.

#7 Jews, Muslims, and Christians cannot work together. thousands of years have proven this fact.

Agree with the jist of your argument, just gonna point out a few things, seeing as Im pretty sure im oen very very few resident Muslims on the board:

1) "Jesus will return. The Qur'an claims that all of the "People of the Book" will believe in him before his death. Many Islamic authors take this passage to mean that Jesus has not died, but instead was raised to Heaven and will return before the day of judgment to establish the Kingdom of God and as a result everyone of the People of the Book (such as Jews, Christians, Sabians, etc.) will become Muslims" is the excerpt. Jesus (referred to as Isa in Islam) is the Messiah, and he is the one who will rally us together during Judgement Day, according to Islamic Faith. Just an intersting tidbit, and another similarity between the Abrahamic Religions that I know some will be surprised by.
2) Theres a reason several Catholic (example being the Khaldians fo Iraq) and Jewish populations spread over the Middle East lived in great conditions for millenia in a Muslim-dominant region, and are still found to this day (although lately they are been prosecuted by the recent outburst of Islamic extremism, although it isnt nearly as bad as the media portrays). Muslim countries were actually the most progressive in terms of religious-cooperation fromm 700CE right up until the beginning of the 20th century, asking the members of their country of different faith to only pay a tax to help fund the local military for their protection. They certainly can work together and the very existence of groups of people such as the Khaldians living in Iraw to this day is a testament to the fact of how many Middle Eastern countries did not bother assimilating all people under one religion, which is one of the reasons why many historians pointed to the demise of the Ottoman Empire. Compare this to Spain, which used to be full of the Muslim Moorish people; after the inquisition, there was none to be found.

But otherwise you provide some very interesting insight on the Israel issue. I feel like the USA should sever a lot of their ties with Israel, since it seems like a very one-sided relationship with the United States receiving little benefit.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Are you being serious? You've never understood the fascination with Israel?

I can understand why it's not an issue that's very important to you. In fact, I could care less about it as well (and I'm decently religious).

However, to many nutcakes, it's a huge issue:

#1 For Christians, many believe that it's going to be the site of the "Apocalypse." To Christians, Jesus Christ will come again once many nations of the world make war against Israel (again for the billionth time). He'll save them (references in revelation... I cannot remember all the chapters... I can find some if you're actually interested).
#2 For Jews, they believe in a sort of coming together. Their established estate is a sign that the Messiah, their general, liberator, and savior, is on his way to appear for the (1st time). Of course, these types of feelings have been felt before. After Jews escaped Egypt, they felt great blessings were in store for them in the promised land. And to an extent, they were greatly blessed. A decently wealthy nation that never really became an empire. But survived for a while. Then, new feelings of retribution after Cyrus the Great captured Babylon and allowed Jewish exiles to go back to Jerusalem.

Perhaps the most notable instance of nationalism came at the time of Christ. Their nation looking for someone to release them from the bonds of Caesar. Instead, the ax came down, and haven't enjoyed being a nation until last century.

(https://www.christianet.com/isaiah/gatheringofisrael.htm) and (Isiah 27)

#3 Muslims. Don't they believe that Mohammad is coming back?

anyway, a lot of Jews, many powerful in America, don't want to see Israel give up anything.
Americans, many of them, know nothing of the situation other than "Muslims" were responsible for 9/11 and high oil prices. Many, especially conservatives, feel that Obama is merely being a coward, bowing to Muslims (which many believe he still is), disrespecting our #1 ally in the ME, and taking away America's prestige as *** kicker by appearing to be in support of "hurting" Israel to "help" Palestine.
Christians, have fought over that region for years.
And Muslims don't want to give an inch.

In my opinion,

#1 Peace never has and never will "break out" in the ME.
#2 Israel, for years, has ridden the wave of the Holocaust to live off American and European dollars. It's time to stop. Holocaust sucked. Now get over it and let me keep my tax dollars please. If you cannot exist on your own then you aren't worth existing.
#3 Israel has had foreign military support for years. And has abused these powers. Everyone in the ME knew that if you messed w/Israel, big Brother would come and beat everyone else up. Out of desperation and frustration with this, terrorism in the ME against the USA has risen.
#4 Israel oftentimes builds huge and ridiculous buildings while neglecting the impoverished Palestinians literally living across the street in many cases. Not exactly endearing themselves to anyone (other than themselves).
#5 Muslims oftentimes are laid back and don't speak out as much as they should about terrorism. The media can also distort how they're portrayed as well. No surprise that Jewish controlled Hollywood doesn't produce any films that would help generate sympathy towards Muslims.
#6 the USA needs to pull out (that's what she said). Lets get the hell out of all these alliances, foreign aid, military spending, and focus on education and health care. Let France screw themselves with Libya. Let Iraq kill itself off. Let Afghans live as cavemen for the next thousand years. Lets join the rest of the industrialized world and get health care and education available to all. Lets get off oil too.

Unfortunately, Christians don't want to see that. As if we're compromising to those evil Muslims. Jews don't want to do that, they control many aspects of our country. And conservatives don't want to see any compromise, because USA kicks ***, Obama is black, guns are good, and Muslims are terrorists.

#7 Jews, Muslims, and Christians cannot work together. thousands of years have proven this fact.

Agree with the jist of your argument, just gonna point out a few things, seeing as Im pretty sure im oen very very few resident Muslims on the board:

1) "Jesus will return. The Qur'an claims that all of the "People of the Book" will believe in him before his death. Many Islamic authors take this passage to mean that Jesus has not died, but instead was raised to Heaven and will return before the day of judgment to establish the Kingdom of God and as a result everyone of the People of the Book (such as Jews, Christians, Sabians, etc.) will become Muslims" is the excerpt. Jesus (referred to as Isa in Islam) is the Messiah, and he is the one who will rally us together during Judgement Day, according to Islamic Faith. Just an intersting tidbit, and another similarity between the Abrahamic Religions that I know some will be surprised by.
2) Theres a reason several Catholic (example being the Khaldians fo Iraq) and Jewish populations spread over the Middle East lived in great conditions for millenia in a Muslim-dominant region, and are still found to this day (although lately they are been prosecuted by the recent outburst of Islamic extremism, although it isnt nearly as bad as the media portrays). Muslim countries were actually the most progressive in terms of religious-cooperation fromm 700CE right up until the beginning of the 20th century, asking the members of their country of different faith to only pay a tax to help fund the local military for their protection. They certainly can work together and the very existence of groups of people such as the Khaldians living in Iraw to this day is a testament to the fact of how many Middle Eastern countries did not bother assimilating all people under one religion, which is one of the reasons why many historians pointed to the demise of the Ottoman Empire. Compare this to Spain, which used to be full of the Muslim Moorish people; after the inquisition, there was none to be found.

But otherwise you provide some very interesting insight on the Israel issue. I feel like the USA should sever a lot of their ties with Israel, since it seems like a very one-sided relationship with the United States receiving little benefit.

 

[PearlWatson]

Sure it is. 1967 is a date that means something to a discussion of Israeli politics and borders. It has no special meaning in budgetary politics. It is a random year. That makes it an arbitrary year with no real meaning.

It isn't a random year. It is the same year Obama wants Israel to rewind the clock to. It doesn't need to have special meaning in budgetary politics. It was simply meant to illustrate Obama's impossible standards of negotiation; standards he would be unwilling to accept when he was on the other end of the negotiating table.

Also, you dodged my question entirely: what year of the federal budget do you think we should be emulating?

It doesn't matter.

Or the Christian desire to kill Muslims and Jews (Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc). Muslims do not have a monopoly on anti-semitism. Nor have you advanced any reason why the establishment of a Jewish state in Israel is necessary or adequate to prevent future ethnic or religious purges between groups. If anything, it appears to inflame tensions.

Israel already is a Jewish state. Muslims want to wipe it off the map. Some of us hope to avoid that. We need a president who wants the same thing instead of being Carter 2.0.

 

[PearlWatson]

If you cannot exist on your own then you aren't worth existing.

Children and liberals cannot exist on their own.

Also people drowning or other life threatening accidents

 

[LogGrad98]

Children and liberals cannot exist on their own.

Also people drowning or other life threatening accidents

By that interpretation of Thriller's comment NO ONE can exist on their own. People need sustenance and shelter at the bare minimum. So if you have a human being alone on a rocky island with no food or water or shelter he would likely cease to exist. Duh.

 

[PearlWatson]

By that interpretation of Thriller's comment NO ONE can exist on their own. People need sustenance and shelter at the bare minimum. So if you have a human being alone on a rocky island with no food or water or shelter he would likely cease to exist. Duh.

An employed person, not dependent on government welfare, with no immediate life threatening injuries could exist on their own under my interpretation.

 

[LogGrad98]

Oh I read it as no one can exist on their own period no matter what. Which in a way is true. A job depends on other people, like typically customers. Or a government willing to bail you out for your horrific mis-management so you can still give you and your buddies multi-million dollar bonuses as a gift for royally screwing over our entire economy.

 

[PearlWatson]

Oh I read it as no one can exist on their own period no matter what. Which in a way is true. A job depends on other people, like typically customers. Or a government willing to bail you out for your horrific mis-management so you can still give you and your buddies multi-million dollar bonuses as a gift for royally screwing over our entire economy.

Thriller's hyperbole was more about monetary aid. Could Israel exist without monetary aid from America? Our political interference seems more of hindrance to Israel's existence than our aid is a help.