Is there a significant amount of discrimination towards blacks in US police departments?

[Stoked]

reasonable points in your post... except for this one


Things must be dramatically different in Utah (or wherever you are) if this is what you think is causing the problem

Maybe if we start with something like "the white community needs to dramatically alter the way resources are distributed" we can begin to remedy some of the educational ills in our society.

Sounds great. I'd point out that it's not just the white community that determines that but I agree that it needs to be altered to be much fairer than it is now. there also needs to more total resources available for education.

But that still does not negate the need for changes within the black community itself. Pushing education was only 1 example of that.

 

[One Brow]

But that still does not negate the need for changes within the black community itself. Pushing education was only 1 example of that.

There aren't any changes needed in the "black community", because there is no singular "black community" any more than there is a singular "white community". The problems in the communities of poor people tend to be the same, with some have the added burdens of discrimination tossed in.

 

[Stoked]

There aren't any changes needed in the "black community", because there is no singular "black community" any more than there is a singular "white community". The problems in the communities of poor people tend to be the same, with some have the added burdens of discrimination tossed in.

sigh...sometimes you have nothing better to do than argue over the silliest things.

 

[Gameface]

sigh...sometimes you have nothing better to do than argue over the silliest things.

I think he made an exceptionally good point and in this instance isn't being given credit for acknowledging that all problems are not a result of race.

As a poor white kid who grew up in a multicultural neighborhood I can say that all of us had similar mentalities for as long as I lived there (until the middle of sixth grade). Moving to a much more upscale area of town was a pretty big eye-opener for me. Felt like I was in school with 3rd graders, but with third graders who knew algebra and cared about getting their homework done.

The fates of my childhood friends started to diverge as we got older and the darker skinned ones seemed to have the worse outcomes. Two of my elementary school classmates and friends were sent to prison before they were 18. Another was shot and killed by police. None of them were white.

 

[Stoked]

I think he made an exceptionally good point and in this instance isn't being given credit for acknowledging that all problems are not a result of race.

As a poor white kid who grew up in a multicultural neighborhood I can say that all of us had similar mentalities for as long as I lived there (until the middle of sixth grade). Moving to a much more upscale area of town was a pretty big eye-opener for me. Felt like I was in school with 3rd graders, but with third graders who knew algebra and cared about getting their homework done.

The fates of my childhood friends started to diverge as we got older and the darker skinned ones seemed to have the worse outcomes. Two of my elementary school classmates and friends were sent to prison before they were 18. Another was shot and killed by police. None of them were white.

I agree that not all problems are a result of race. But in trying to remove discrimination, unfair practices and prejudices each general community has a part to play in changing that dynamic. Keep in mind that this is in a thread created to talk about racial discrimination. Not the rich poort dynamic even though that plays into it.

Obviously using terms like "black community" is a very general term when used this way. But no more so than "rich" and "poor". That still does not take from the fact that no matter which terms you wish to use, all segments of society have unique things they need to do to help resolve the problem based on how you classify them.

 

[One Brow]

sigh...sometimes you have nothing better to do than argue over the silliest things.

You think your stated position is a silly thing?

 

[Stoked]

You think your stated position is a silly thing?

No, your overwhelming need to nitpick over anything mentioned about blacks is silly. Especially given the tone of the post that you nitpicked. Or even that you ignored parts that mentioned the white and latino communities on the same level and tone. Had to get your narrative in.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

What can be done is very complicated and has many different parts where all groups need to step the hell up, hard.

Black community has to dramatically push education. They need to stop blaming whites for all their problems.

Don't you think this is a tad bit overstated?

Education is a horrible failure. No reason America should not be a leader (not the leader) in every field. Math, science, history, more bilinguals, physics, medicine...need to focus on the poorest performing schools (Many minority dominated inner city schools. Such as requiring a second language for all students from K-12. Changing Social Studies to a actual study of different societies and their culture, music, foods..., more group projects that push the use of imagination and creativity...

One of the problems with education is that it is, for the good part, funded out out of local property taxes. This has created a huge disparity in the quality of education. The largely white (though far from solely white) students living in suburbs and from middle class families by and large receive a good quality eduction, while the largely minority (though far from solely minority) students living in urban centers received a much poorer quality of education. I imagine also that children living in hard core rural areas, including white and minority, also receive a poor education. Thus one possible solution, and probably a critical one, to improving overall educational quality is figuring out how to address the funding imbalances. Yet, this is hard to do, as middle class suburban families don't want their tax dollars to go to fund inner-city schools, while local communities rabidly resist federal encroachment on localized education. (See the bru ha ha over the Common Core to get a good sense of this.) Until you figure out a way to address this issue, the disparity in educational outcomes will persist, regardless if you do all this other stuff.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I think he made an exceptionally good point and in this instance isn't being given credit for acknowledging that all problems are not a result of race.

As a poor white kid who grew up in a multicultural neighborhood I can say that all of us had similar mentalities for as long as I lived there (until the middle of sixth grade). Moving to a much more upscale area of town was a pretty big eye-opener for me. Felt like I was in school with 3rd graders, but with third graders who knew algebra and cared about getting their homework done.

The fates of my childhood friends started to diverge as we got older and the darker skinned ones seemed to have the worse outcomes. Two of my elementary school classmates and friends were sent to prison before they were 18. Another was shot and killed by police. None of them were white.

I'm guessing here, but I suspect that educational aspiration and attainment correlates much more strongly with income than it does with race. More, that whatever relationship that exists between aspiration and attainment with race largely disappears once we control for income.

If true (and I don't know it is), then discussions of what the 'black community' should do about education become very different to the point where they become irrelevant and the discussion should focus on how to break the vicious cycle that poverty can produce, for people of all races and ethnicities.

 

[♪alt13]

Don't you think this is a tad bit overstated?



One of the problems with education is that it is, for the good part, funded out out of local property taxes. This has created a huge disparity in the quality of education. The largely white (though far from solely white) students living in suburbs and from middle class families by and large receive a good quality eduction, while the largely minority (though far from solely minority) students living in urban centers received a much poorer quality of education. I imagine also that children living in hard core rural areas, including white and minority, also receive a poor education. Thus one possible solution, and probably a critical one, to improving overall educational quality is figuring out how to address the funding imbalances. Yet, this is hard to do, as middle class suburban families don't want their tax dollars to go to fund inner-city schools, while local communities rabidly resist federal encroachment on localized education. (See the bru ha ha over the Common Core to get a good sense of this.) Until you figure out a way to address this issue, the disparity in educational outcomes will persist, regardless if you do all this other stuff.

I think people just need to be sold on economies of scale. A perfect example was the split of the Jordan district in Salt lake county. The split was sold to the east side on the basis that they were paying to educate students on the west side. IIRC, it was less than 2 years before both sides were raising taxes to address their funding gap caused in large part by the breakup.

https://archive.sltrib.com/printfriendly.php?id=9741646&itype=storyID

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

There's a lot to like here.

But I feel a need to help expound upon education.

#1 the legislature really ties our hands with what and how we teach. They are the ones who really determine the curriculum, they create the tests, and they are the ones who have created the system that will soon determine pay raises (merit pay starting in 2016).

I could teach my kids group projects about food and culture from Africa or South America. This would teach the students how to do research and maybe actually enjoy their educational experience.
Or
I could have the kids memorize what will most likely be on the test that will determine my pay raise (and federal money to my starved school district).
It's far easier and more efficient to push through my curriculum (set up by the legislature) through direct (lecture) instruction rather than blowing a week or two having kids do research and create some sort of presentation.

#2 I know of a lot of teachers that would love to attend conferences or take classes to refine their skills and gain new ideas. Most often, these courses or conferences are expensive and aren't paid for by the district. For people trying to raise a family on $30k per year? That's a tremendous sacrifice that most just cannot make.

#3 Lastly, we as a society don't give a damn about education. We really don't. I'm not sure why, but something happened post WWII that changed the way we felt about education. We feel like we can dominate the world with our bombs and technology while ignoring all the education that created that technology.
If we really valued educators, we'd pay them a hell of a lot more. Should they be rich, like doctors or pro athletes? No, but they shouldn't have to work 2-3 jobs to make ends meet. It should be an attractive profession.
We should have smaller class sizes and have some sort of enforcement to help hold parents/students accountable. Smaller class sizes would help teachers give students the individual attention they currently lack.

Education can be fixed in this country. We just need to decide to do it.

I don't get it. Why is there NO REASON the US should not be tops in educational attainment?? There are plenty of other quite wealthy, highly advanced countries in the world. This notion that the US should always inherently be #1 in everything strikes me as silly American Exceptionalism.

Interestingly, many of the countries that exceed the US in educational attainment have a highly federal system of education, including funding and standards, both of which would be highly problematic to adopt here, because of the US's unique system of localized educational funding and standards, which, by golly because it's the US, it must be the best. Right?

 

[LogGrad98]

I don't get it. Why is there NO REASON the US should not be tops in educational attainment?? There are plenty of other quite wealthy, highly advanced countries in the world. This notion that the US should always inherently be #1 in everything strikes me as silly American Exceptionalism.

Interestingly, many of the countries that exceed the US in educational attainment have a highly federal system of education, including funding and standards, both of which would be highly problematic to adopt here, because of the US's unique system of localized educational funding and standards, which, by golly because it's the US, it must be the best. Right?

Right!

 

[One Brow]

No, your overwhelming need to nitpick over anything mentioned about blacks is silly. Especially given the tone of the post that you nitpicked. Or even that you ignored parts that mentioned the white and latino communities on the same level and tone. Had to get your narrative in.

Actually, I let the first time you put it out there pass, until you decided to double down with it, because we certainly can't do without your version of the world.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I think people just need to be sold on economies of scale. A perfect example was the split of the Jordan district in Salt lake county. The split was sold to the east side on the basis that they were paying to educate students on the west side. IIRC, it was less than 2 years before both sides were raising taxes to address their funding gap caused in large part by the breakup.

https://archive.sltrib.com/printfriendly.php?id=9741646&itype=storyID

But this doesn't address the problem of people living in a largely white suburban school district not wanting their property tax dollars going to support schools in largely minority inner-city school districts. When schools districts of have different funding sources (as is the case when property taxes are the primary funding source), you can't merge the districts to achieve the economies of scale you're talking about.

 

[One Brow]

I'm guessing here, but I suspect that educational aspiration and attainment correlates much more strongly with income than it does with race. More, that whatever relationship that exists between aspiration and attainment with race largely disappears once we control for income.

Largely, but not entirely.

 

[One Brow]

Interestingly, many of the countries that exceed the US in educational attainment have a highly federal system of education, including funding and standards, both of which would be highly problematic to adopt here, because of the US's unique system of localized educational funding and standards, which, by golly because it's the US, it must be the best. Right?

Thy also have better social welfare. Some studies have shown that stressful living situations affect children for years; it actually affects their brain chemistry and makes it harder to learn.

 

[Stoked]

@One Brow - Because I am talking on a societal level. One you seem to have no problem with doing when it comes to whites and latinos as you have yet to make a fuss about that. You betray your own agenda when you only voice objections for one specific group despite all groups being treated equally in my original post. You passed up the opportunity for real discussion here when you choose to go with your agenda. Good day as I have had enough of your disinterest in real dialogue for a while.


@Jimmy you bring up some good points about education, I agree that changes all around need to be made. Perhaps all education related taxes and federal funding are paid into an account for each state under the control of that states education board. Then each state can control what is taught and how it is taugh. They also control where the funds go on a state by state level. Keep in mind my intitial post was just initial ideas. It was not very in depth and far from all encompassing.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

@One Brow - Because I am talking on a societal level. One you seem to have no problem with doing when it comes to whites and latinos as you have yet to make a fuss about that. You betray your own agenda when you only voice objections for one specific group despite all groups being treated equally in my original post. You passed up the opportunity for real discussion here when you choose to go with your agenda. Good day as I have had enough of your disinterest in real dialogue for a while.


@Jimmy you bring up some good points about education, I agree that changes all around need to be made. Perhaps all education related taxes and federal funding are paid into an account for each state under the control of that states education board. Then each state can control what is taught and how it is taugh. They also control where the funds go on a state by state level. Keep in mind my intitial post was just initial ideas. It was not very in depth and far from all encompassing.

No problem Stoked. It's a very complicated issue. I certainly don't have the answer. The funding aspect is only part of it, but it is, I think, a pretty important part.

Personally, I'm in favor of less localized control over education. I understand the arguments for and against, but then I'm NOT a states rights person. I personally have no problem with greater federal involvement in many aspects of society, as I fear the tyranny of the majority at the state/local level (to use somewhat hyperbolic term) much more than I fear the tyranny of some distant federal government.

 

[JAZZGASM]

I don't think there is a broad stroke answer to this question. Yes, many police officers discriminate solely based on race, but I would not classify all or even most cops that way.

I do think cops (and our justice system in general) discriminates against the poor, which as a percentage, includes more blacks. If you are poor, you are more likely to live in an area with more crime, and more harrasment from police (due to the high crime). If you do get arrested for whatever offense, using an overworked public defender will likely result in a harsher punishment than you could have achieved if you could afford an attorney with the time to properly represent you.

There are going to be racists in every facet of life, including those in positions of authority. It does not make sense to stereotype all cops due to the bad apples.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I don't think there is a broad stroke answer to this question. Yes, many police officers discriminate solely based on race, but I would not classify all or even most cops that way.

I do think cops (and our justice system in general) discriminates against the poor, which as a percentage, includes more blacks. If you are poor, you are more likely to live in an area with more crime, and more harrasment from police (due to the high crime). If you do get arrested for whatever offense, using an overworked public defender will likely result in a harsher punishment than you could have achieved if you could afford an attorney with the time to properly represent you.

There are going to be racists in every facet of life, including those in positions of authority. It does not make sense to stereotype all cops due to the bad apples.

Yes, but all it takes is a few bad apples to completely destroy the trust between police and citizens. They need to be rooted out and discarded. No more solid blue line (police version of omerta) resisting the cleaning out of corrupt/bad cops. (How you achieve, this, not sure.)