What's new
By:

Isaah Thomas Calls Malone the Weakest Link

AKMVP said:
To bad we do not have clutch shooting stat data like we have now. I would be interested to see what FT% Malone shot in last 3 min of the close games in playoffs. We all certainly remember 1997 Finals game 1 and 1996 WCF game 7 vs Seattle where he did choke at the line down the stretch... so maybe Isiah has some point.
Click to expand...

Isiah has a point that Malone "choked" missing some FTs but the weakest link crap is just plain stupid. Under no circumstances would the Jazz/Malone be in position to choke without Malone. I always find the choke label as being stupid because say Malone goes for 35 pts (say with a high percentage) and then he misses a FT down the stretch and the team loses. The MJ shoots 9-26 and makes the game winner and he is the greatest ever.

Yes I know the point is winning, however the idea that a player choke based on one play is more media theatrics then reality. In my opinion one play doesn't make a player any more of a choker than a player who sucks most of the game and then makes a big shot. Without Malone the Jazz aren't even in the game and if MJ shoots a better percentage then he truly would be great instead of the hero worship he received for finally making a shot.
 
cowhide said:
I don't know if you watch much basketball but yes refs do determine the outcome of some games. Even Stockton said that a couple bad calls can be the difference. When two mistakes -taking away a 3p shot and then allowing a basket (Harper) that was painfully obvious a shot clock violation is not corrected, how can you say it didn't affect the outcome. Imagine if the Jazz had been give those 5 pts, then there would be no last second shot. The Jazz most likely would have kept the ball in Hornacek or Stockton's hands. We will never know. Did you know that Dick Bavetta apologized to S&M the next year for blowing the calls. Why do you think the league now reviews questionable calls at the end of games (i know it wasn't this series but later when the Mavs got screwed - changes were made)?

1972 Olympics - Poster child for how incompetent refs can change the outcome

Sactown, Dallas, Portland and the Jazz would tell you differently. Throw in Indy and how they got screwed in the Eastern conference finals against MJ.

Malone numbers were down in the playoffs because teams were better able to double and triple team him because they knew his inferior teammates would not step up (see David Benoit). Same with Stockton, the Bulls adjusted and put Pippen on him which cause trouble for stockton. If 1997 the Jazz sat around for 10 days before playing the Bulls so they rusty when the series started. The 54 point blow out was just that a horrible game but the Jazz came back and won the next game. Of course they had their chances but when you have to overcome a huge disparity of calls it makes it very difficult.
Click to expand...

cowhide said:
Isiah has a point that Malone "choked" missing some FTs but the weakest link crap is just plain stupid. Under no circumstances would the Jazz/Malone be in position to choke without Malone. I always find the choke label as being stupid because say Malone goes for 35 pts (say with a high percentage) and then he misses a FT down the stretch and the team loses. The MJ shoots 9-26 and makes the game winner and he is the greatest ever.

Yes I know the point is winning, however the idea that a player choke based on one play is more media theatrics then reality. In my opinion one play doesn't make a player any more of a choker than a player who sucks most of the game and then makes a big shot. Without Malone the Jazz aren't even in the game and if MJ shoots a better percentage then he truly would be great instead of the hero worship he received for finally making a shot.
Click to expand...

Iawtp

Good work cowhide
 
cowhide said:
Isiah has a point that Malone "choked" missing some FTs but the weakest link crap is just plain stupid. Under no circumstances would the Jazz/Malone be in position to choke without Malone. I always find the choke label as being stupid because say Malone goes for 35 pts (say with a high percentage) and then he misses a FT down the stretch and the team loses. The MJ shoots 9-26 and makes the game winner and he is the greatest ever.

Yes I know the point is winning, however the idea that a player choke based on one play is more media theatrics then reality. In my opinion one play doesn't make a player any more of a choker than a player who sucks most of the game and then makes a big shot. Without Malone the Jazz aren't even in the game and if MJ shoots a better percentage then he truly would be great instead of the hero worship he received for finally making a shot.
Click to expand...

great points, however in those two particular games Malone did shot less then 50% throughout the game as well.
8-22 FG and 6-12 FT vs Seattle and slightly better 10-22 and 3-6 vs Chicago in 1997. Both those games he shot 50% from the FT line.

Obviously Malone was not the weakest link, that is just plain stupid. But he was bad clutch time FT shooter - maybe that's what Isiah had in his stupid head but could not articulate properly.
 
AKMVP said:
great points, however in those two particular games Malone did shot less then 50% throughout the game as well.
8-22 FG and 6-12 FT vs Seattle and slightly better 10-22 and 3-6 vs Chicago in 1997. Both those games he shot 50% from the FT line.

Obviously Malone was not the weakest link, that is just plain stupid. But he was bad clutch time FT shooter - maybe that's what Isiah had in his stupid head but could not articulate properly.
Click to expand...

You make a fine point. I didn't say Malone hadn't choked in his career. He had several bad games but Stockton, Hornacek and Russell etc. had plenty of bad games but Malone it seems like Karl got most of the criticism. Why because he was the best player? Why did Stockton take more "clutch" shots because teams double and tripled team Malone. Malone hit plenty of key shots but people like to remember the misses. I remember Johnny missing a key FT in the Phoenix series (game 5) which the Jazz ended up losing (Hornacek played for the Suns). If David Benoit made one of the 3 pts against Houston the Jazz would have made the Finals the year the Rockets beat the Knicks for a championship.
 
cowhide said:
Isiah has a point that Malone "choked" missing some FTs but the weakest link crap is just plain stupid. Under no circumstances would the Jazz/Malone be in position to choke without Malone. I always find the choke label as being stupid because say Malone goes for 35 pts (say with a high percentage) and then he misses a FT down the stretch and the team loses. The MJ shoots 9-26 and makes the game winner and he is the greatest ever.

Yes I know the point is winning, however the idea that a player choke based on one play is more media theatrics then reality. In my opinion one play doesn't make a player any more of a choker than a player who sucks most of the game and then makes a big shot. Without Malone the Jazz aren't even in the game and if MJ shoots a better percentage then he truly would be great instead of the hero worship he received for finally making a shot.
Click to expand...

Yes, Malone came up short in a few instances, but I don't blame him as much. His room for error seemed smaller then other teams top offensive player, due to the fact that he never had much help and support on offense. Stockton was more a table setter and only looked for his shot only when he absolutely had to, and Horny was older with bad knees and mostly just a long distance shooter. For the most part Malone never played next to a second offensive player that the other team feared. Down the streatch if Malone didn't score chances were no one did. Yes he screwed up from time to time. Those we remember, but he also came threw a bunch for his team, and we tend to forget those. I don't care what anyone says! Malone is one of the best to step on the court and the greatest pf to ever play the game. Put him on the Spurs team and Duncan on the Jazz and Malone has the chips playing along side guys like Robinson, and Eliot, or Parker, and Ginobili, and the rest of their teams supporting cast of players. I would argue that Malone played with more pressure to perform then other top scorers. Not trying to make excuses for Malone, but I can see how he might fail more then other superstars in the clutch.
 
He's the stereotypical "go with his gut" guy.

And that's what sports was for a lot of years.. but it can skew your perception of things horribly. Likely this one instance was enough for Thomas to grab on to a flaw and drag it around because he has some hurt feelings.
 
cowhide said:
I don't know if you watch much basketball but yes refs do determine the outcome of some games. Even Stockton said that a couple bad calls can be the difference. When two mistakes -taking away a 3p shot and then allowing a basket (Harper) that was painfully obvious a shot clock violation is not corrected, how can you say it didn't affect the outcome. Imagine if the Jazz had been give those 5 pts, then there would be no last second shot. The Jazz most likely would have kept the ball in Hornacek or Stockton's hands. We will never know. Did you know that Dick Bavetta apologized to S&M the next year for blowing the calls. Why do you think the league now reviews questionable calls at the end of games (i know it wasn't this series but later when the Mavs got screwed - changes were made)?

1972 Olympics - Poster child for how incompetent refs can change the outcome

Sactown, Dallas, Portland and the Jazz would tell you differently. Throw in Indy and how they got screwed in the Eastern conference finals against MJ.

Malone numbers were down in the playoffs because teams were better able to double and triple team him because they knew his inferior teammates would not step up (see David Benoit). Same with Stockton, the Bulls adjusted and put Pippen on him which cause trouble for stockton. If 1997 the Jazz sat around for 10 days before playing the Bulls so they rusty when the series started. The 54 point blow out was just that a horrible game but the Jazz came back and won the next game. Of course they had their chances but when you have to overcome a huge disparity of calls it makes it very difficult.
Click to expand...


My problem is you can't blindly blame the refs for losing games. That is a poor excuse. Of course refs have an effect on games but it works both ways. Fans always notice more when their team *doesn't* get the call not when they *do* get the call.

If you're going to be the guy on the team (and Malone was the guy on those Jazz teams) then the bulk of the blame on crunch time performance falls on him.
 
You can't just add/subtract the impact of bad calls throughout the game and add it to the final score and say it would have been different. MJ was a guy who refused to lose. Basketball is a game of rhythm and momentum. Bad calls can have no effect on the outcome or can have a "butterfly effect" on the entire remainder of the game. It isn't as easy as saying Bavetta cost us three and gave them two so add that to the final score an we win. It just isn't.
 
Well sometimes Refs have a very high influence.
Over here in Germany we have really only 1 good referee in the whole league. What's even worse when their ego somehow tells them to make their presence known. When that happens they can snowball a game. Witnessed often from my side when one team had a totally functional offense, but then the opposite teams decided they had seen enough open 3s and opened driving lanes and somehow the players didn't get the right calls near the basket, which resulted in the team unnecessarily adapting their offense when they shouldn't if refs did their job properly.
That being said I rarely see NBA games nowadays that are impacted heavily by the refs with all the replay features.

But last NCAA tourney, a lot of games I have watched I found to be very poorly refereed. No clear way to call fouls is the worst. Takes away a lot of fun for the spectator.
Are the NCAA refs pros or amateurs?

Plus I find it VERY disturbing that it's allowed for women to referee male games. More often than not they overwhistle to make their presence known. Should do the rules like for soccer. For pro level: male whistle for males and vice versa.
 
Gameface said:
You can't just add/subtract the impact of bad calls throughout the game and add it to the final score and say it would have been different. MJ was a guy who refused to lose. Basketball is a game of rhythm and momentum. Bad calls can have no effect on the outcome or can have a "butterfly effect" on the entire remainder of the game. It isn't as easy as saying Bavetta cost us three and gave them two so add that to the final score an we win. It just isn't.
Click to expand...

The only reason the Bavetta argument holds water, imo, is that they were not decisions about possession, but rather just about whether a made shot should count and for how much. I agree that there is way more to it than that, but I think if the decisions had something to do with more or fewer possessions then it would have had more of a butterfly effect, but the fact that those calls really were just extra points, and point swings, I think it is far more likely they would have had an impact on the final outcome.
 
Malone is overrated by posters around here. To be expected because he was on ya'lls team. Isiah Thomas is an idiot and nothing he says should be taken serious. Malone was p.o.s and so was isiah. Probally why they hate each other
 
ncoloradojazz said:
Malone is overrated by posters around here. To be expected because he was on ya'lls team. Isiah Thomas is an idiot and nothing he says should be taken serious. Malone was p.o.s and so was isiah. Probally why they hate each other
Click to expand...

Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah....hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaha...whahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahaha...gasp...hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhhahahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahhaha
 
ncoloradojazz said:
Malone is overrated by posters around here. To be expected because he was on ya'lls team. Isiah Thomas is an idiot and nothing he says should be taken serious. Malone was p.o.s and so was isiah. Probally why they hate each other
Click to expand...

eb73d-Cool_story_bro-a6.jpg
 
I liked house. It was a good show.
 
LogGrad98 said:
The only reason the Bavetta argument holds water, imo, is that they were not decisions about possession, but rather just about whether a made shot should count and for how much. I agree that there is way more to it than that, but I think if the decisions had something to do with more or fewer possessions then it would have had more of a butterfly effect, but the fact that those calls really were just extra points, and point swings, I think it is far more likely they would have had an impact on the final outcome.
Click to expand...

The go-to argument for a lot of Jazz fans is the "MJ push off". No Ref was going to make that call. not in 98 and not in 2013. Yes there were other questionable calls (a Jazz 3 that was counted as a two and Bulls 2 that was counted as a 3 plus a foul or something like that, forgive me if I remembered it wrong I was 13 when I watched the game and I'm not in the mood to look it up now.) Sure, that could have swung the game in Utah's favor, but you also have to remember, we had the lead going into the final 2 minutes and Malone blew a key possession and honestly that is all it takes sometimes.
 
ncoloradojazz said:
Malone is overrated by posters around here. To be expected because he was on ya'lls team. Isiah Thomas is an idiot and nothing he says should be taken serious. Malone was p.o.s and so was isiah. Probally why they hate each other
Click to expand...

Yeah, 2 MVPs and something like 10 straight all NBA first teams. Really overrated.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top