Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
imagine if Hamas had even used half the money it's diverted into building tunnels, arms and terrorist activities into actual infrastructure for ... you know, it's people
Israel-Hamas War
- Thread starter Rubashov
- Start date
Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
dude you're then not reading very widely
Well I have read about the tunnels. Is that the primary focus? They are going to need to occupy Gaza for a long time. Same for rooting out Hamas terrorists. I think retribution is Bibi's primary goal. And who pays for the colossal humanitarian crisis caused by this? The U.S.? And what of its long term impacts? Erdogan has already come out on the side of Hamas. Russia is using this as an excuse to drum up anti-American support. China will use it to hurt our world standing. Just wait until the images of starving children start flooding world press.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
That is the question everyone should be asking Hamas and the majority of Gazans who support pursuing a war against Israel. Putting a million children through this suffering is what the majority of Gazans, in poll after poll after poll, and their elected government want for Gaza.
Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
whatever happens it's a mess, i don't know what the answer is. But Israel have very clearly said they're specifically striking what they believe is Hamas infrastructure, which sadly they have woven throughout the fabric of the civilian population, not just randomly firing rockets everywhere. What would you have Israel do, given what Hamas' clearly stated charter is ?
Israel are in a no-win situation. I don't know the answer, but a massively disproportionate response is probably not the answer, especially with children doing most of the suffering. At this point it's Bibi's vendetta because he got egg on his face. The problem is it's going to do much more to hurt them and their allies than help them and we have been sucked into his egotistical response.
Who conducts the polls?
Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
i certainly agree he is partially saving face for sure
Sardines
Well-Known Member
"They" do.
I'm sure Hamas would be happy if Israel decided not to invade. The suffering is seen as an inevitable consequence of their goal, not the goal itself, i.e., not something they "want".
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
IF you don't know the answer then may I point you toward how this problem was handled in the past by Arab nations in this position. The problem is the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the parent organization of Hamas.
Example #1:
When the Palestinians attacked the ruling government of Jordan, including at least two assassination attempts on King Hussein, the response was to raise an army, kill thousands in days, and drive them from Jordan. That bit of history is referred to as Black September. The result was to secure the rule of King Hussein, dramatically reduce terrorism in his country, and leave Jordan as one of them most stable countries in the region.
Black September - Wikipedia
Example #2
When the Muslim Brotherhood attacked the Syrian government under Hafez al-Assad, he had his military surround the city they were based in. All food, water, and electricity was cut off for months. Then he ordered his artillery to open fire on the city indiscriminately. More then two-thirds of the city was leveled to rubble and no one was allowed out. Anyone trying to escape the city was shot. Thus ended Syria's problem with the Muslim Brotherhood. That event is called the Hama Massacre.
1982 Hama massacre - Wikipedia
Hamas / the Muslim Brotherhood has attacked Israel many times, and Israel has responded by pulling all settlers out of Gaza and letting the Arabs of Gaza rule themselves however they see fit. Israel tried giving land and aid to then suffer the largest killing of Jews since WWII.
If you don't know what the solution is, look to history to see what worked and what did not before urging a path of a soft or non-response being the best response to a threat from the Muslim Brotherhood.
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IF you don't know the answer then may I point you toward how this problem was handled in the past by Arab nations in this position. The problem is the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the parent organization of Hamas.
Example #1:
When the Palestinians attacked the ruling government of Jordan, including at least two assassination attempts on King Hussein, the response was to raise an army, kill thousands in days, and drive them from Jordan. That bit of history is referred to as Black September. The result was to secure the rule of King Hussein, dramatically reduce terrorism in his country, and leave Jordan as one of them most stable countries in the region.
Black September - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Example #2
When the Muslim Brotherhood attacked the Syrian government under Hafez al-Assad, he had his military surround the city they were based in. All food, water, and electricity was cut off for months. Then he ordered the his artillery to open fire on the city indiscriminately. More then two-thirds of the city was leveled to rubble and no one was allowed out. Anyone trying to escape the city was shot. Thus ended Syria's problem with the Muslim Brotherhood. That event is called the Hama Massacre.
1982 Hama massacre - Wikipedia
Hamas / the Muslim Brotherhood has attacked Israel many times, and Israel has responded by pulling all settlers out of Gaza and letting the Arabs of Gaza rule themselves however they see fit. Israel tried giving land and aid to then suffer the largest killing of Jews since WWII.
If you don't know what the solution is, look to history to see what worked and what did not before urging a path of a soft or non-response being the best response to a threat from the Muslim Brotherhood.
Comparing events from 1970 and 1982 and their results to todays reactions to a similar tactic might be problematic. Cell phones, social media, the press and propaganda could create unforeseen implications. Crushing Gaza and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of children could legitimately lead to WW3. At a minimum it would embolden millions of other muslims around the world to join the fight against Israel... and the USA.
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure it would but it also isn't a path I'd advocate for. The point is that until all sides want peace, there will be war. To get there requires that all sides understand how bad war is. The people have to understand war means dead women, dead children, dead friends, dead family members. The people collectively seeing the price of being at war as being so high, so awful as to be intolerable, that is where you find peace. It sucks. It would be nice if we could get there through financial aid and happy thoughts but we're humans. Making war less awful for the people is not the path.
This is going back a long way but there was an episode of Star Trek (The Original Series) titled 'A Taste of Armageddon' that touched on this idea.
Sardines
Well-Known Member
Is this your submission to the Miss USA Pageant?
JimLes
Well-Known Member
The time for a comprehensive peace treaty and actual Palestinian statehood has long passed. The best chance for it was sometime between 1993 and 2000.
On the Israeli side, it was the last time there were anything resembling left-of-centre governments. The entire electorate has shifted to the right in the past 25-30 years. Part of it is that the religious, Haredi sector of the society has higher birthrates and has been proportionally growing in size. They have also been more politically active, after decades of only partial involvement in what they see as secular politics. I don't have to tell you how they feel about Palestinians or security issues in general. They also don't have to serve in the army, so hey, of course you'll support IDF operations.
Another part of this is the massive post-Soviet immigration to Israel. The country had 5 million people in 1990 and then proceeded to receive more than a million new immigrants from the former Soviet republics over the next decade. This population is largely secular with some not even being legally Jewish. They are fairly liberal on social issues, but hard-line on security stuff. To give you an indication of their political importance, at its peak in 2009, the largely Soviet immigrant-supported Yisrael Beiteinu party held an eight of all seats in the Knesset.
Finally, there has also been a general hardening of Israeli views on Palestinians and the peace process in the aftermath of the Second Intifada and all the violence of the last couple of decades. Until this recent Hamas rampage, there had also been a sense that Israel can keep a tight leash on both Gaza and the West Bank without much cost.
On the Palestinian side, the turn of the millennium was the last time there was a united leadership and some sense of political direction. Arafat both commanded the allegiance and respect of most Palestinians, and had enough credibility as a veteran of the struggle to be able to offer some concessions. Now you have what are essentially two Palestinian para-states with leaderships that fought a civil war. Neither are democratic in any sense. Hamas is Hamas, and Fatah seems to have lost all credibility among even the residents of the West Bank. Abu Mazen is 88 years old and hasn't allowed elections in almost 2 decades because Fatah would almost certainly lose them. His deputies and other close associates in the PLO are 70+ as well.
There's simple a sense of there not being anyone on either side willing or able to negotiate.
On the Israeli side, it was the last time there were anything resembling left-of-centre governments. The entire electorate has shifted to the right in the past 25-30 years. Part of it is that the religious, Haredi sector of the society has higher birthrates and has been proportionally growing in size. They have also been more politically active, after decades of only partial involvement in what they see as secular politics. I don't have to tell you how they feel about Palestinians or security issues in general. They also don't have to serve in the army, so hey, of course you'll support IDF operations.
Another part of this is the massive post-Soviet immigration to Israel. The country had 5 million people in 1990 and then proceeded to receive more than a million new immigrants from the former Soviet republics over the next decade. This population is largely secular with some not even being legally Jewish. They are fairly liberal on social issues, but hard-line on security stuff. To give you an indication of their political importance, at its peak in 2009, the largely Soviet immigrant-supported Yisrael Beiteinu party held an eight of all seats in the Knesset.
Finally, there has also been a general hardening of Israeli views on Palestinians and the peace process in the aftermath of the Second Intifada and all the violence of the last couple of decades. Until this recent Hamas rampage, there had also been a sense that Israel can keep a tight leash on both Gaza and the West Bank without much cost.
On the Palestinian side, the turn of the millennium was the last time there was a united leadership and some sense of political direction. Arafat both commanded the allegiance and respect of most Palestinians, and had enough credibility as a veteran of the struggle to be able to offer some concessions. Now you have what are essentially two Palestinian para-states with leaderships that fought a civil war. Neither are democratic in any sense. Hamas is Hamas, and Fatah seems to have lost all credibility among even the residents of the West Bank. Abu Mazen is 88 years old and hasn't allowed elections in almost 2 decades because Fatah would almost certainly lose them. His deputies and other close associates in the PLO are 70+ as well.
There's simple a sense of there not being anyone on either side willing or able to negotiate.
Red
Well-Known Member
Anti-Jewish Mob Storms Daghestani Airport As Flight From Israel Arrives
A mob of hundreds of people shouting anti-Jewish epithets stormed and shut down the airport in the Russian city of Makhachkala in the predominantly Muslim region of Daghestan after a flight arrived from Tel Aviv on October 29.
www.rferl.org
View: https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1718700497224245455
Putin calls meeting after mob storms airport in Dagestan looking for Israelis on plane from Tel Aviv
Russian President Vladimir Putin has called a meeting of top security and law enforcement officials after a mob stormed the airport in Dagestan shortly after a plane from Tel Aviv landed there.
apnews.com
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Douchebag K
Well-Known Member
the only thing Hamas truly want is to exterminate the state of Israel and establish Islamic fundamentalist rule. They care little for their people let alone anyone else's, they have zero interest in any kind of long lasting peace. If the suffering of their people helps achieve their goals, they're ok with it.
Red
Well-Known Member
Pro-Hamas protesters beat Black Hebrew Israelites with Palestinian flags - in Chicago - The Midwesterner
The Israel-Hamas war has come to America. Black Hebrew Israelites and pro-Hamas Palestinians duked it out in the streets of Chicago this weekend. Video captured by Yeshiva World News showed pro-Hamas protesters using their Palestinian flag poles as weapons as both sides fought in the roadway...
View: https://twitter.com/anjewla90/status/1718696802948378643
Red
Well-Known Member
How This Israel-Hamas Conflict Is Like Nothing That’s Happened Before
(Bloomberg) -- The long history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is filled with bloodshed, dislocation and trauma. But even by those relative standards, the current conflagration stands out. For one thing, it’s especially brutal. Not since the Holocaust have as many Jews been massacred at one...
Al-O-Meter
Well-Known Member
To say this is different is a massive understatement. Rockets, mortars, and car bombs is one thing but what Hamas did was unspeakable.How This Israel-Hamas Conflict Is Like Nothing That’s Happened Before
(Bloomberg) -- The long history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is filled with bloodshed, dislocation and trauma. But even by those relative standards, the current conflagration stands out. For one thing, it’s especially brutal. Not since the Holocaust have as many Jews been massacred at one...news.yahoo.com
DO NOT LOOK FOR THIS FOOTAGE BECAUSE YOU CANNOT UNSEE IT.
Hamas militants entered a home, grabbed a baby from its mothers arms and put it screaming into an oven that they then turned to broil. The father was killed and they gang raped the mother as her baby burned alive in the oven. We know this isn't fake news because the Hamas militants recorded the whole thing on GoPro and just released the footage.
View: https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1718903979466256653
People on this forum who have defended Hamas, try to 'both sides' the actions, or claim that you have to view this in some sort of context can **** right off.
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