It Gets Better at Brigham Young University

[The Black Swordsman]

What are people's thoughts about being gay being a natural phenomena?

I heard it is natural because other animals do it.

I heard it isn't natural because only animals in captivity do it in zoos (kinda like straight guys in jail).

 

[AtheistPreacher]

I heard it isn't natural because only animals in captivity do it in zoos (kinda like straight guys in jail).

I'd like to see references for this. It sounds bogus... pretty sure I've heard of homosexual animal sex going on in the wild. But I don't have sources either way, myself.

But the whole why people are gay thing has always been an interesting question for me. I know a pair of twins where one is gay and one isn't. What's that about? Just a lot we still don't know about it.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Ya because the biologist in me is thinking that in evolutionary terms the offspring that are gay don't reproduce to produce offspring so their "gayness" doesn't get passed on down the offspring.

So AP, you have an identical twin, are there things that are completely way different between you and your brother like you like football and he likes video games?

 

[AtheistPreacher]

Ya because the biologist in me is thinking that in evolutionary terms the offspring that are gay don't reproduce to produce offspring so their "gayness" doesn't get passed on down the offspring.

So AP, you have an identical twin, are there things that are completely way different between you and your brother like you like football and he likes video games?

Not really... pretty much the same. I like NBA and NHL, he likes NBA and NFL. We're both big gamers, him even more than me... he has two PS3s, a new black 360, a Wii (or maybe two Wiis? I forget), a PSP, and I think a Nintendo DS as well. He has something like 200 games. I have a lot, but it's more like half of that. For the anime, we're kind of reversed. I'm a nut, and he likes it but isn't obsessed. And as for jobs, he went into IT, I went for the theology stuff. Think that's about it.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Not really... pretty much the same. I like NBA and NHL, he likes NBA and NFL. We're both big gamers, him even more than me... he has two PS3s, a new black 360, a Wii (or maybe two Wiis? I forget), a PSP, and I think a Nintendo DS as well. He has something like 200 games. I have a lot, but it's more like half of that. For the anime, we're kind of reversed. I'm a nut, and he likes it but isn't obsessed. And as for jobs, he went into IT, I went for the theology stuff. Think that's about it.

Who is the Brook Lopez and who is the Robin Lopez of the group?

Also, do you believe Nature or Nurture is more important?

 

[NUMBERICA]

BabyPeterzz is saying a lot of the stuff that I didn't really want to.

That said, improvement is improvement I guess.

The End.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

Who is the Brook Lopez and who is the Robin Lopez of the group?

Also, do you believe Nature or Nurture is more important?

Not sure what you're talking about for the first question.

But nature vs. nurture... I really don't know. I sort of gave up asking. I think it's probably a bit of both.

 

[spycam1]

Not sure what you're talking about for the first question.

But nature vs. nurture... I really don't know. I sort of gave up asking. I think it's probably a bit of both.

And I doubt it's exactly the same for each individual.

 

[TroutBum]

Details please.

Sorry *** cheeks, but I'd rather have a discussion on philosophy with OneBrow's latest dump than talk to you about anything that would involve you using your brain -- and I'd easily get more out of the pooh conversation, I'm certain.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Huh?

Tolerant?

BYU might be the most "tolerant" place in the whole United States. When was the last time you ever heard of anyone being beaten up, shot at, or mugged there? Race, sexual orientation, etc are treated much more intolerantly at other universities.

Does BYU have an Honor Code that COULD potentially be embarrassing to you if you screw up? Sure. But who forced you to go there? You CHOSE to live by a certain standard. IF you cannot or do not want to abide by the standards they have put forth, then leave!

it could be a lot worse. Just look at cases at Duke, North Carolina, Virginia Tech, Cal, etc.... Students are constantly being beaten up, harassed, or accused of much worse things.

BYU students might be ignorant of some things. But I'd rather receive a note about my "inappropriate dress" and how my clothes gave someone bad thoughts than be beaten up or harassed because of my skin color or sexual orientation. Which is what typically happens at every other university in this country.

Once again, BYU gets a bad rap for its religious affiliation. What the enemies of the church won't do to hurt something they refuse to accept.

BYU is a very special and unique place. Tolerance is something that BYU and Mormons in particular have a lot of. Most of Christianity is saying that kids are going to hell and that Mormons are possessed by Demons because they believe in the BOM and that homosexuality is a one-way ticket to hell... Mormons believe in children being saved and not blamed for Adam's transgression. Mormons believe in both the BOM and Bible. And Mormons teach and believe that transgressions (actual actions) are causes for repentance. NOT having temptations to commit x with x.

In regards to this video, I think it is great! Look at how many "straight" Mormons are reaching how to their fellow homosexual members and students? Where else do you see this? Fellow members reaching out to other members. Helping them to not feel like crap or commit suicide. In fact, this is what I got out of it. It was a reach out video for support and positive thinking. Don't commit suicide.

I repeat, where else do you see this?

Certainly not at TCU. They were going to provide gay housing (and hetero could live there too) for students... But public outcry was severe, so the plans were cancelled.

Perhaps TCU needs a video of, "It gets better at TCU."

https://www.queerty.com/texas-chris...using-but-not-because-of-the-uproar-20090414/

Of course, we all know that Mormons are intolerant and other Christian denominations are perfectly tolerant... As are all other religions. As are all other people without religious affiliation!

Mormons stink! And have horns!

This post is so full of naiveté, or ignorance, or both about what goes on at BYU and more generally within tight-knit, closed, conservative religious communities that it is almost breathtaking.

BYU tolerant??? Tell that to several of my acquaintances (who are the tip of the iceberg) who were hounded out of BYU for failure to conform to orthodoxy, whether sexual or religious. Tell that to the numerous other students there who keep their mouths shut and act with extreme caution out of fear of being 'outed' for whatever reason.

As someone who was part of this BYU underground, as it were, I know what I'm talking about. You have probably never been on the other side, or even tried to imagine yourself on it. You are grossly uninformed.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Agreed, although I tend to lean strongly toward the opinion that sexual orientation is a hard wired part of our personality. For those who think that homosexuality is a choice, I would only ask about the circumstances surrounding their conscious choice to be heterosexual instead of homosexual.

 

[Beantown]

Sorry *** cheeks, but I'd rather have a discussion on philosophy with OneBrow's latest dump than talk to you about anything that would involve you using your brain -- and I'd easily get more out of the pooh conversation, I'm certain.

TunaBreath, I didn't ask for a discussion I asked for details. Cool reading skills.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

TunaBreath, I didn't ask for a discussion I asked for details. Cool reading skills.

You want details and no discussion? Then use the google. Here, I did it for you and these are a couple responses:

Neutral - https://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-history-evolution.php

Apologetic, dismissing all statements as opinion, not "doctrine" - https://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth

What some consider an "Anti" source - https://mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm

However, your comments imply that you want discussion and not just details. Good luck with that.

 

[TroutBum]

You want details and no discussion? Then use the google. Here, I did it for you and these are a couple responses:

Neutral - https://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/lds/lds-history-evolution.php

Apologetic, dismissing all statements as opinion, not "doctrine" - https://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Age_of_the_Earth

What some consider an "Anti" source - https://mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm

However, your comments imply that you want discussion and not just details. Good luck with that.

You just put waaaaaay too much effort into a response to BeanClown. +19 anyhow.

 

[spycam1]

Anyone here read anti-Mormon/apologist arguments? It's a little hobby of mine that I find to be pretty interesting and relevant to my life.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

If anyone has some good ones on youtube I would watch them. Even though I am a Muslim I enjoy watching Christian Apologetics like John Lennox and Dinesh D'souza because I realize that their arguments for the existence of God are even stronger for Islam.

 

[franklin]

Ya because the biologist in me is thinking that in evolutionary terms the offspring that are gay don't reproduce to produce offspring so their "gayness" doesn't get passed on down the offspring.

The wannabe biologist in you. There are many factors you're naively omitting. Three examples: 1. If homosexuality is a genetic anomoly then what is the natural mutation rate? 2. Is it a recessive trait that can be carried without showing up while adding other beneficial traits that aid survival and propagate the gene (think sickle cell)? 3. Is it linked to a more promiscuous lifestyle fostering a higher/broader reproductive rate than single partner heterosexuals?

Agreed, although I tend to lean strongly toward the opinion that sexual orientation is a hard wired part of our personality. For those who think that homosexuality is a choice, I would only ask about the circumstances surrounding their conscious choice to be heterosexual instead of homosexual.

A lot of things are hard wired. I have a hard wire attraction to beer, money, and the sun. I don't wake up and ponder whether I'm attracted to beer or not, or when exactly this attraction manifested itself.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

The wannabe biologist in you. There are many factors you're naively omitting. Three examples: 1. If homosexuality is a genetic anomoly then what is the natural mutation rate? 2. Is it a recessive trait that can be carried without showing up while adding other beneficial traits that aid survival and propagate the gene (think sickle cell)? 3. Is it linked to a more promiscuous lifestyle fostering a higher/broader reproductive rate than single partner heterosexuals?



A lot of things are hard wired. I have a hard wire attraction to beer, money, and the sun. I don't wake up and ponder whether I'm attracted to beer or not, or when exactly this attraction manifested itself.

I should clarify. This is what I would say to those who think that sexual orientation is a choice. The word choice implies a conscious decision between competing alternatives.

And yes, you did make a conscious choice when you decided that you liked beer and that you were going to drink it. It was not a biological imperative.

Sexual orientation is not a conscious choice from a menu of sexual alternatives. There is no decision point. It is fundamentally who you are. An inherent part of your personality and is quite a bit different in nature from, say, drinking beer.

 

[franklin]

And yes, you did make a conscious choice when you decided that you liked beer and that you were going to drink it. It was not a biological imperative.

That's simply not true. I choose to drink beer. I did not choose my biological attraction to beer.

Sexual orientation is not a conscious choice from a menu of sexual alternatives. There is no decision point. It is fundamentally who you are. An inherent part of your personality and is quite a bit different in nature from, say, drinking beer.

That's your opinion.

If you're going to argue it's a fundamental part of us (genetic) then you should actually consider genetics. Pathways can be turned on or off. It's possible there is a homo inside all of us but the pathways are turned off in most. There may be a "silver bullet" drug someday that permanently inactivates homo tendencies and vice versa.

It's also quite possible that, in those who are already genetically susceptible to homosexuality, other choices lead to a homosexual condition without having to actually ever decide whether one is homo or not, as you have said.

The physiology is mostly unknown at this point. I suspect more will come to light as medicine and technology advances and opens new avenues for research. I suppose we could just forget about the actual biology though, and go with some mystical element that makes us either gay or straight at random.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

That's simply not true. I choose to drink beer. I did not choose my biological attraction to beer.

I'm not sure I'd call it a 'biological attraction' to beer. Equating one's preference to malted fermented beverage to one's sexual orientation strikes me as an inappropriate comparison. Which beverages you enjoy and prefer to consume is a very different kind of issue, with far less weighty implications, than one's sexual orientation. The latter is a fundamental part of who we are as humans and individuals, the former not so much.

That's your opinion.

If you're going to argue it's a fundamental part of us (genetic) then you should actually consider genetics. Pathways can be turned on or off. It's possible there is a homo inside all of us but the pathways are turned off in most. There may be a "silver bullet" drug someday that permanently inactivates homo tendencies and vice versa.

It's also quite possible that, in those who are already genetically susceptible to homosexuality, other choices lead to a homosexual condition without having to actually ever decide whether one is homo or not, as you have said.

The physiology is mostly unknown at this point. I suspect more will come to light as medicine and technology advances and opens new avenues for research. I suppose we could just forget about the actual biology though, and go with some mystical element that makes us either gay or straight at random.

That's also the current status of empirical research, though I admit it's a far from settled empirical question. I am very confident that if we could, say, do a representative survey of the world's population, we would find that one's sexual orientation is not, for the vast majority, a choice. It is a biological imperative that is hard wired, whether the cause is genetic, environmental, or both. Again, I ask, when did you decide to be straight instead of gay? (Or gay instead of straight?)

As to the rest of your post, I don't get the bigger point you're trying to make here. I suppose it is possible that we could manipulate one's sexual orientation somehow through some kind of gene therapy. So what? If true, it corroborates the argument that sexual orientation is genetically determined, which is consistent with the point I'm making.