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Its Time to Tank

idiot said:
I would classify rebuilding/resetting as the larger category (with multiple options within it), and tanking as one of those options (the one that prioritizes losing for the sake of a draft pick over all other options). You can rebuild (including getting rid of certain players that aren't going to be part of your future, and even get draft assets back for them) without tanking.

If you want to equate rebuilding and tanking, then we're just arguing about definitions.

If you want to argue that we've prioritized the best possible draft pick with our actions this year, I'll simply reply that we've done a terrible job at that. We haven't shied away from the possibility of a good draft pick, but we haven't made it the highest priority either.
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I agree we have sucked at it. Lauri is literally the most improved player in the league and all star starter and quite frankly is playing like an all nba mvp caliber player. Which is something that came out of nowhere. We dont get lauri or Lauri plays more like everyone expected and we are right down there with detroit and houston. Also everyone is always saying rookies dont contribute. Yet there is Kessler in our faces contributing big time. If he plays like a typical rookie, especially one drafted where he was drafted, then that would also have kept us right at the bottom. We greatly exceeded expectations by players we thought wouldn't be that good being WAY better than we thought they would be.
 
fishonjazz said:
I agree we have sucked at it. Lauri is literally the most improved player in the league and all star starter and quite frankly is playing like an all nba mvp caliber player. Which is something that came out of nowhere. We dont get lauri or Lauri plays more like everyone expected and we are right down there with detroit and houston. Also everyone is always saying rookies dont contribute. Yet there is Kessler in our faces contributing big time. If he plays like a typical rookie, especially one drafted where he was drafted, then that would also have kept us right at the bottom. We greatly exceeded expectations by players we thought wouldn't be that good being WAY better than we thought they would be.
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I completely agree that the Jazz very likely expected to be worse, maybe much worse. But waiting until there's only 1/4 of the season left to make any moves once they saw that they were better means to me that they weren't prioritizing the pick over all other considerations -- in other words, they haven't been tanking. They were willing to let the chips fall where they fell.
 
idiot said:
I completely agree that the Jazz very likely expected to be worse, maybe much worse. But waiting until there's only 1/4 of the season left to make any moves once they saw that they were better means to me that they weren't prioritizing the pick over all other considerations -- in other words, they haven't been tanking. They were willing to let the chips fall where they fell.
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Can you think of a scenario in nba history where a team actually did a tanking move?
 
fishonjazz said:
Can you think of a scenario in nba history where a team actually did a tanking move?
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Wasn't Philly during the Process all basically tanking? They made sure they were bad enough to get a top pick. It was clear that they prioritized those picks more than anything else.

(And toward the end of seasons, I'd argue that individual teams have tanked to get a better draft spot, even if we can't define their whole season as tanking.
 
idiot said:
I completely agree that the Jazz very likely expected to be worse, maybe much worse. But waiting until there's only 1/4 of the season left to make any moves once they saw that they were better means to me that they weren't prioritizing the pick over all other considerations -- in other words, they haven't been tanking. They were willing to let the chips fall where they fell.
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Transactions cycles man. After the offseason the next transaction cycle is at the trade deadline. They needed to get value so they didn’t just give players away… wasn’t their choice to wait. They would have made the move 10-15 games ago… if that is where the trade deadline fell.
 
idiot said:
Wasn't Philly during the Process all basically tanking? They made sure they were bad enough to get a top pick. It was clear that they prioritized those picks more than anything else.
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Only if you spin it that way.
I see it as they were simply playing guys who they wanted to get a better look at and traded away guys who werent part of the future plan. They were just rebuilding.


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Handlogten's Heros said:
Transactions cycles man. After the offseason the next transaction cycle is at the trade deadline. They needed to get value so they didn’t just give players away… wasn’t their choice to wait. They would have made the move 10-15 games ago… if that is where the trade deadline fell.
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Of course I know the transaction cycles. That's why I have a hard time interpreting what happens at the trade deadline as hard-core tanking. Sure you can do some soft-core stuff then, but what the Jazz did last week can barely even be called that.

Your're not saying the FO has been desperately flagellating themselves for not trading more before the seasons started, feeling that it was impossible to do any deal during the four months in the interim, are you?

You've kind of made my point, I think. The Jazz have prioritized other things besides just the pick this season. They wanted enough of the right kind of value in return rather than just trade everything to protect the pick. If they were really that concerned, and if they had gone all in on the the-best-asset-we-have-is-our-own-pick logic, they would and could have done different things.
 
fishonjazz said:
Only if you spin it that way.
I see it as they were simply playing guys who they wanted to get a better look at and traded away guys who werent part of the future plan. They were just rebuilding.


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Its not a spin. They constructed teams that were not competitive by design without trying to improve them during the process.. until they got the lottery luck they wanted.

The worst team in NBA this season, Rockets, has just about the same winning % than Sixers averaged over 4 full seasons.

Furthermore since the definition itself is very subjective, public opinion matters. Sixers tanking is commonly accepted as a fact.
 
HermanG said:
Its not a spin. They constructed teams that were not competitive by design without trying to improve them during the process.. until they got the lottery luck they wanted.

The worst team in NBA this season, Rockets, has just about the same winning % than Sixers averaged over 4 full seasons.

Furthermore since the definition itself is very subjective, public opinion matters. Sixers tanking is commonly accepted as a fact.
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And when the jazz traded Royce, bogey, don and Gobert public opinion was that the jazz made tanking moves and were tanking. It was commonly accepted as fact. Vegas had us right at the bottom of the league for example. You might ask how Vegas determines betting lines. Well it's basically based off public opinion.
Ainge tried to make the jazz bad. He failed though. Tried his best to get us a top lotto pick. His best wasn't good enough though.
 
fishonjazz said:
And when the jazz traded Royce, bogey, don and Gobert public opinion was that the jazz made tanking moves and were tanking. It was commonly accepted as fact. Vegas had us right at the bottom of the league for example. You might ask how Vegas determines betting lines. Well it's basically based off public opinion.
Ainge tried to make the jazz bad. He failed though. Tried his best to get us a top lotto pick. His best wasn't good enough though.
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Media read us wrong and thought we have a poorly constructed team. They have since come around and history will call us a team "that was supposed to tank but didnt". We actually went for a faster rebuild.

Danny took back NBA starter level players in all but one of those trades. They took the Cleveland trade over Knicks trade because the players were better and thus the value was better. Danny was adamant that Lauri is part of the trade and they saw what he did in NT qualifications.

They traded for a spacing center in Olynyk because Kessler wasnt supposed to be good and Hardy wanted to play a certain brand of ball. Thats team construction.

We had the deepest bench in the league (Beasley, Sexton, THT, NAW, Ochai, Kessler, Gay) and while our starters werent ment to be as good as they turned out they were still miles better than Houston etc. We had the 10th oldest team coming into the year.

They even kept Conley, an All-star from few seasons ago... and Clarkson, who they knew was good.
 
fishonjazz said:
And when the jazz traded Royce, bogey, don and Gobert public opinion was that the jazz made tanking moves and were tanking. It was commonly accepted as fact. Vegas had us right at the bottom of the league for example. You might ask how Vegas determines betting lines. Well it's basically based off public opinion.
Ainge tried to make the jazz bad. He failed though. Tried his best to get us a top lotto pick. His best wasn't good enough though.
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Although I agree losing 2 allstars and a bunch of good vets in the past year was a massive blow up on paper. The returns were not tank or die returns. The only way an actual full season tank were to happen was if none of the players they got back were available to compete at all. Then add the drive and determination of players like Mike and JC to keep winning and boost their next deal. I just don't see how the players Danny added is a sign he was interested in a full season tank. Selling off good young players and Mike does seem like a tank the rest of the season move, but at the same time, he didn't get rid of anyone really that had any future in Hardy's system anyway. So he cut his losses and got a pick for them.
I think the only way the Jazz make the middle lottery range, is with a lot of luck going their way, from other teams pushing for play in experience. instead of a better chance at a top pick.
However there is an argument to be made that since the odds are really not that much better anyway, the Jazz won't be intentionally resting anyone good consistently down the stretch , unless they lose enough playing those good rotation players, that they are out of reach of the play in anyway. Then they would only want to get as good a lottery position as possible.
We have the luck in our corner though, I think we will move up to the top 4 no matter where we are, unless of course we make the post season, which is still in play since we were never in full tank.
 
I mean first game, we started:
Conley, 1 time All-star, age 35
Clarkson, SMOTY winner, age 30
Lauri, All-Rookie team 2018 and starter in Cleveland, age 26
Jarred Vanderbilt, starter in a playoff team in previous year, age 23
Kelly Olynyk, played 23 MPG in NBA finals 2 years earlier, age 30

Is that a tanking team? Average age 29.
 
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Ainge and Ryan Smith have only publicly said that the the team was being restructured from it's previous runs and the long-term goal is what is in mind. Does that mean hardcore tanking? Maybe not. Danny's good at trade and drafting unexpected value in the draft - it wouldn't surprise me that the plan matches Danny's strengths.
 
HermanG said:
Media read us wrong and thought we have a poorly constructed team. They have since come around and history will call us a team "that was supposed to tank but didnt". We actually went for a faster rebuild.

Danny took back NBA starter level players in all but one of those trades. They took the Cleveland trade over Knicks trade because the players were better and thus the value was better. Danny was adamant that Lauri is part of the trade and they saw what he did in NT qualifications.

They traded for a spacing center in Olynyk because Kessler wasnt supposed to be good and Hardy wanted to play a certain brand of ball. Thats team construction.

We had the deepest bench in the league (Beasley, Sexton, THT, NAW, Ochai, Kessler, Gay) and while our starters werent ment to be as good as they turned out they were still miles better than Houston etc. We had the 10th oldest team coming into the year.

They even kept Conley, an All-star from few seasons ago... and Clarkson, who they knew was good.
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Wasnt just the media dude.
The media doesnt set the vegas odds


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It's absolutely hilarious how some websites are saying Scoot is 6'3'', or even 6'4''.

In the real, non-NBA world, the kid is about 6'1''. He's an undersized scoring guard who shoots 28% from the perimeter and has a negative net rating in the freaking G League.
 
HermanG said:
Well media influences the public and they build the common narratives. But the point was we were misjudged and the label was always incorrect, and it has already been corrected.
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Agree to disagree. Public influences the media. The label was correct. We started off really hot for the first 13 games. Those 13 games were the aberration. The games following those 13 fluky games are more what we are. 19-28. That would put us 3rd worst in the west right now. Hell, even with that fast fluke of a start we are almost 3rd worst in the west.
 
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