What's new
By:

Its Time to Tank

Handlogten's Heros said:
When you only have 1/3 of the season left and are sitting at 12th.... yes.

Also the Jazz might value KO/JC more than the seconds they maybe could have gotten and moving from 8th or 9th to maybe 7th. Just because they didn't go scorched earth doesn't mean they didn't do the other deals in part to influence the standings. Everyone seems to have their own definition of tanking... offloading current talent to finish with a better pick is a core tenet of whatever rational definition people use. We 100% did that... just not quick enough for some or to the extreme others would like.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm sure we're somewhat speaking past each other because we have different definitions of tanking.

Improving a draft position in moves that also make good long-term sense otherwise a bit is part of a rebuilding strategy to me. Maybe you can even say it's the "tanking" element of the strategy. But when I hear people talk about the need to tank, they so often seem to be saying that the draft position (and thus losing) needs to be the highest priority in the rebuilding strategy. It's that latter use of "tanking" that I don't think the Jazz are fully on board with. They'll clearly accept a few more losses to get a better chance at a higher pick, but they're not pre-occupied by that pursuit. Their goals/strategies/objectives are broader than that (again, as I've said before, unless they're just doing a terrible job of achieving their objectives).
 
I heard boler on the radio on my drive home from work tonight saying that he had meetings with the jazz prior to the season starting in which they discussed how to spin positivity during what everyone thought would be a **** ton of losing.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
The only people that seem to think the jazz didn’t have tanking on the mind none jazzfan, Markkanen fans from is home. You don’t trade your top 3 options in your starting lineup for picks and role players if you’re having thoughts of making the playoffs. No one in the jazz org saw Markkanen and said “ya!! He’s an allstar!!” Let alone an allstar starter scoring almost 25 a game 9 boards over 40% from 3 and a good defender. I’m also pretty sure they didn’t see him as the #1 option. Deep down you all knew this but got excited just as the rest of us when the jazz stRted 10-3 while in the middle of a rough part of the schedule playing all the playoff teams and back to backs. No one saw Markkanen doing what he’s done. And don’t mention euro league as a sign. The nba is a different beast he’ll, Fontecchio. Had a great tournament there as well and he can’t get off the bench.
Click to expand...
I agree about most of this. Also want to add that Lauri has been good in the NT before, and it hasnt translated into the NBA. No one saw the ascension coming this year, albeit some people suspected it seeing that Lauri was likely to be a top option here which he has been in international games as well but not in the NBA since his 2nd year.

But this tanking debate is an ongoing loop that always ends up in the same place... agree to disagree. The reason is terminology really. While many here think that all moves that make the roster worse are shades of tanking, I don't. Rebuilding is necessary in various situations and we were in one last year despite finishing at the top of the standings. But it just wasnt working and it was time to cash out on at least some of it.

There is a difference between trying to make the best possible end product with limited ingredients and trying to intentionally create a bad product. Even the trade we made which was obviously very likely to make us worse in the short term, was made with clear future intentions. Had the primary goal been to make the product worse, they should have done more.
 
Anyone got a tl;dr version of fish and Herman back and forth?

Don’t feel like reading the last 10 pages but still wanna know.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Listened to an interview with the great Andy Larsen on the Drive with Spence Checketts... He mentioned the front office considering part of the value of the trade with LA that they would move down the standings. Said they would not be rooting for too many more wins this season. Said some FO folks kinda pitched it to him like if you move from 12 to 8 on draft night that would cost at least an extra first...

Feels like I have heard these sentiments before... I wonder if any posters on here had been saying basically that same thing. Strange.
Click to expand...
Sure. But you could also move down the standings without giving up anything by being a bit creative with your injury list and line ups. I get their point, but it's simply a consequence when you do a somewhat uneven trade: it makes you worse, hence a potentially better draft pick.
 
ONE LOVE said:
Anyone got a tl;dr version of fish and Herman back and forth?

Don’t feel like reading the last 10 pages but still wanna know.
Click to expand...
I would say it was an opinionated terminology debate about whether our downgrading moves within the last year qualify as tanking or rebuilding or both. Thats how I would summarize it.
 
HermanG said:
I agree about most of this. Also want to add that Lauri has been good in the NT before, and it hasnt translated into the NBA. No one saw the ascension coming this year, albeit some people suspected it seeing that Lauri was likely to be a top option here which he has been in international games as well but not in the NBA since his 2nd year.

But this tanking debate is an ongoing loop that always ends up in the same place... agree to disagree. The reason is terminology really. While many here think that all moves that make the roster worse are shades of tanking, I don't. Rebuilding is necessary in various situations and we were in one last year despite finishing at the top of the standings. But it just wasnt working and it was time to cash out on at least some of it.

There is a difference between trying to make the best possible end product with limited ingredients and trying to intentionally create a bad product. Even the trade we made which was obviously very likely to make us worse in the short term, was made with clear future intentions. Had the primary goal been to make the product worse, they should have done more.
Click to expand...
It is possible to tank and build for the future.
 
HermanG said:
I would say it was an opinionated terminology debate about whether our downgrading moves within the last year qualify as tanking or rebuilding or both. Thats how I would summarize it.
Click to expand...
I would say it is a half hearted tank designed to keep the fans engaged, sell tickets and still get a half decent draft pick… now what would you call that?
 
ONE LOVE said:
I would say it is a half hearted tank designed to keep the fans engaged, sell tickets and still get a half decent draft pick… now what would you call that?
Click to expand...
Rebuilding and tanking both make you worse by default. Retooling is about changing pieces around aiming to maintain the level of performance.

Tanking is when you prioritize draft and make the team worse by design while in rebuilding you prioritize in getting good players or maximum overall value regardless of how it affects team performance.

Of course you always give value to your own draft pick and how moves affect it.. question to me is more about the priority of things. I dont think losing has been a top priority for us thus far. We didnt do enough to achieve it on the DL either.
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
It is possible to tank and build for the future.
Click to expand...
lol thats what tanking is, and we were never fully tanking. Complete destruction requires you to make all moves for the future only, that didn't really happen last summer.
The sell off at the deadline was more tankish, but the team retained key players that are already contributors to winning. That is still not tanking. its just retooling.
Now if we traded the Finnisher Sexton and Agbaji for scrubs and futures I might say we were tanking
 
Interesting article on the tank race, play in, etc.

After AS break is where tanking gets super serious... we are setup and have an opportunity with not many diving head first into the tank race. We may end up being just too good for too long... but the article was interesting... copied the Jazz portion as it is behind a paywall.

https://theathletic.com/4243267/2023/02/23/victor-wembanyama-nba-draft-lottery/

Utah (29-31): This is the team to watch as far as pulling the rip cord on a standings slide after midseason trades removed Mike Conley, Malik Beasley and Jarred Vanderbilt from the mix. However, how far could they really go? The Jazz have already banked 29 wins and have three games left against the Spurs. They were also able to win road games in Toronto and Indiana even after the trade deadline.

It would be an awful look for the Jazz to capitulate right now, just half a game from the 10th position, but that stance might change if their three games in the next 10 days against Oklahoma City(!) don’t go well. Positioning themselves behind the Lakers, Bulls and Blazers in the standings would give their odds a nice jolt and likely wouldn’t even require that brazen a tanking effort. However, catching the Pacers and Magic to reverse-thrust into the bottom six seems unlikely.
 
ONE LOVE said:
I would say it is a half hearted tank designed to keep the fans engaged, sell tickets and still get a half decent draft pick… now what would you call that?
Click to expand...
Lol I didnt answer your question. I think all moves we have made have been made prioritizing value and other things than tanking our record (cap, development etc).

So I call them just rebuilding moves without the tanking label. I do hope we also get a high pick at this point as it seems that few extra losses could significantly increase our chances in landing additional starter quality guy.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Interesting article on the tank race, play in, etc.

After AS break is where tanking gets super serious... we are setup and have an opportunity with not many diving head first into the tank race. We may end up being just too good for too long... but the article was interesting... copied the Jazz portion as it is behind a paywall.

https://theathletic.com/4243267/2023/02/23/victor-wembanyama-nba-draft-lottery/

Utah (29-31): This is the team to watch as far as pulling the rip cord on a standings slide after midseason trades removed Mike Conley, Malik Beasley and Jarred Vanderbilt from the mix. However, how far could they really go? The Jazz have already banked 29 wins and have three games left against the Spurs. They were also able to win road games in Toronto and Indiana even after the trade deadline.

It would be an awful look for the Jazz to capitulate right now, just half a game from the 10th position, but that stance might change if their three games in the next 10 days against Oklahoma City(!) don’t go well. Positioning themselves behind the Lakers, Bulls and Blazers in the standings would give their odds a nice jolt and likely wouldn’t even require that brazen a tanking effort. However, catching the Pacers and Magic to reverse-thrust into the bottom six seems unlikely.
Click to expand...
Some of the highlights on this year's "race". The bottom 4 are pretty set... Indiana and Orlando may do some light tanking but not a lot of motivation to be too bad as their spots are somewhat set because the two teams closest to them have no motivation to tank as they don't own their picks. This is the hole we can step into... 7 or 8 if we pull the cord or if we just suck.

I doubt OKC rests SGA unless he is really hurt. He has a good shot at all-nba which would mean he gets a big financial boost.
 
HermanG said:
Lol I didnt answer your question. I think all moves we have made have been made prioritizing FUTURE value and other things than tanking our record (cap, development etc).

So I call them just rebuilding moves without the tanking label. I do hope we also get a high pick at this point as it seems that few extra losses could significantly increase our chances in landing additional starter quality guy.
Click to expand...
I think there is a key word missing...

Not necessarily directed at you but all this stuff were we call it tanking or rebuilding is kind of hilarious... reminds me of going to "business meetings" with friends and then asking if this is a "pyramid scheme"... and they are like "lol no... not a pyramid scheme... its a multi-tiered sales network organization". Okay sure.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think there is a key word missing...

Not necessarily directed at you but all this stuff were we call it tanking or rebuilding is kind of hilarious... reminds me of going to "business meetings" with friends and then asking if this is a "pyramid scheme"... and they are like "lol no... not a pyramid scheme... its a multi-tiered sales network organization". Okay sure.
Click to expand...
Actually it wasnt missing. I was referring to overall value of the package coming back, current + future.

And I know terminology is a funny thing, but to me a team is tanking only if top priority is set to the next draft.

If that has truely been our top target at any point (including the trade deadline deal), then our FO gets a much worse grade for their decissions (including the ones they didnt make, like trading JC who already won us the Pacers game).
 
HermanG said:
Actually it wasnt missing. I was referring to overall value of the package coming back, current + future.
Click to expand...
I mean trading an all-nba center for a rookie, some role players and picks is future value, trading an all star guard for a couple fliers on young vets and picks is looking at future value, trading Mike, Vando, Malik for a pick is future value... THT and KO are minor deals. Its very clear that the overall value was like 80/20 future vs current.
HermanG said:
And I know terminology is a funny thing, but to me a team is tanking only if top priority is set to the next draft.

If that has truely been our top target at any point (including the trade deadline deal), then our FO gets a much worse grade for their decissions (including the ones they didnt make, like trading JC who already won us the Pacers game).
Click to expand...
Front office may not fully be able to game the system but its too early since the deadline to say they failed with the tank to the middle of the lotto (if that was one of their goals). The next 5 or so games will be a big part in determining how successful that effort was. I think it was a secondary benefit (which is why JC and KO weren't sold off for scraps)... I personally won't judge too harshly if we end up in the play in... it would just mean Lauri and Walker went to another level and THT isn't terrible. I assume Collin will miss 5 games or so before coming back.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top