Its Time to Tank

[HermanG]

I mean trading an all-nba center for a rookie, some role players and picks is future value, trading an all star guard for a couple fliers on young vets and picks is looking at future value, trading Mike, Vando, Malik for a pick is future value... THT and KO are minor deals. Its very clear that the overall value was like 80/20 future vs current.

Front office may not fully be able to game the system but its too early since the deadline to say they failed with the tank to the middle of the lotto (if that was one of their goals). The next 5 or so games will be a big part in determining how successful that effort was. I think it was a secondary benefit (which is why JC and KO weren't sold off for scraps)... I personally won't judge too harshly if we end up in the play in... it would just mean Lauri and Walker went to another level and THT isn't terrible. I assume Collin will miss 5 games or so before coming back.

Lets not do the full dance again, since we dont disagree about anything that much except about the honesty of some of their comments.

I think we might barely be bad enough for 8th, but as you said those 5 games can swing us either way and we dont yet know how Blazers (sans Hart and Payton) and Thunder will approach the remaining stretch.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Lets not do the full dance again, since we dont disagree about anything that much except about the honesty of some of their comments.

I think we might barely be bad enough for 8th, but as you said those 5 games can swing us either way and we dont yet know how Blazers (sans Hart and Payton) and Thunder will approach the remaining stretch.

And I hope we end up 8th... but I wouldn't fault the front office if we "fell short". They can only do so much and tanking is not a function to be handled by the coaches or players. The took a reasonable amount of options off the table so if we are still successful its because other players surprised or played at a high level.

 

[fishonjazz]

lol thats what tanking is, and we were never fully tanking. Complete destruction requires you to make all moves for the future only, that didn't really happen last summer.
The sell off at the deadline was more tankish, but the team retained key players that are already contributors to winning. That is still not tanking. its just retooling.
Now if we traded the Finnisher Sexton and Agbaji for scrubs and futures I might say we were tanking

Trading Lauri, Agbaji and sexton for scrubs MIGHT say we were tanking? LOL. No such thing as tanking then.

 

[Douchebag K]

I would say it is a half hearted tank designed to keep the fans engaged, sell tickets and still get a half decent draft pick… now what would you call that?

an exercise in futility ??

 

[Korisfani]

Tanking is about losing. Nothing else. As much as possible / needed.

Player development, getting better, whatever = not tanking.

The took a reasonable amount of options off the table so if we are still successful its because other players surprised or played at a high level.

I mean, so far not very many players have surprised. The team has, sure. But most Jazz players played pretty much exactly as their past career suggested they would (Olynyk, Vando, JC, Beasley). Others worse than previously: Conley, Sexton. Agbaji was a major disappointment to start, then has been a bit better. Kessler rode the pine until Christmas, has been excellent since then. And then there's Lauri - major, major surprise. So if the FO was tanking before the season, either they had no idea who these players were or were exepcting almost everyone to regress in a big way.

 

[Eddie Zero]

Trading Lauri, Agbaji and sexton for scrubs MIGHT say we were tanking? LOL. No such thing as tanking then.

I guess if we had not gotten such good players from the Cavs is all I am saying, and instead opted for the likes of older players like Osman, Love etc. and picks, then and only we would have been in full tank mode to start the season. Danny is just too damn good to get this roster bad enough fast enough to ever be in tank mode

 

[framer]

It is just about impossible to tank with a healthy all star on the roster. Not an "emerging all-star" or injury replacement all-star but a "fringe starter" all star.

I'd rather be in the position of having one of those in the hand than waiting for the ping pong balls to maybe give me a shot at a dude who could be my FIRST all star.

There really isn't much to whine about right now as a Jazz fan.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Tanking is about losing. Nothing else. As much as possible / needed.

Not really... this is a rigid definition you are using though.

Player development, getting better, whatever = not tanking.

Player development often comes at the expense of winning... and is certainly part of tanking.

I mean, so far not very many players have surprised. The team has, sure. But most Jazz players played pretty much exactly as their past career suggested they would (Olynyk, Vando, JC, Beasley). Others worse than previously: Conley, Sexton. Agbaji was a major disappointment to start, then has been a bit better. Kessler rode the pine until Christmas, has been excellent since then. And then there's Lauri - major, major surprise. So if the FO was tanking before the season, either they had no idea who these players were or were exepcting almost everyone to regress in a big way.

Lauri is a huge surprise. Kessler being not just playable but really good is a surprise. He did not ride the bench until Christmas. He was a rotation player from day 1.

Mild surprises... JC made improvements on both sides of the ball. Sexton is having his most efficient season. KO started the season shooting 50%+ from three.

Its not even a question if the FO and league was surprised by how good we are and how good we started. They admitted they were surprised.

Tanking, rebuilding, retooling, etc. whatever you want to call it. The team traded out current value to take a step back and get future value (they got 7 firsts and a few swaps for the players they moved). I don't think they wanted to sink to the levels of Houston/SA... but I think they thought they'd win at about a 35 win pace for a while and could swap out other parts to get bottom 5-6. There are levels to this stuff... if I say I'm going on a diet that could mean I cut out one meal a day and don't eat sweets... it could also mean I only drink water and eat cucumbers.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It is just about impossible to tank with a healthy all star on the roster. Not an "emerging all-star" or injury replacement all-star but a "fringe starter" all star.

I'd rather be in the position of having one of those in the hand than waiting for the ping pong balls to maybe give me a shot at a dude who could be my FIRST all star.

There really isn't much to whine about right now as a Jazz fan.

Oh I agree... but at this point I'd rather end the season 8th than 12th and that is entirely possible with the guys we have offloaded and the current injury we have with Sexton. PG is now really shallow and that is a key trait of teams that can lose with talent on the roster... they have a roster hole. If Lauri/Walker and the boys are too good to allow that to happen... well then thats okay by me.

 

[Korisfani]

Not really... this is a rigid definition you are using though.

It is the definition.

You can do other things at the same time as you're tanking, of course. But tanking is losing.

He did not ride the bench until Christmas. He was a rotation player from day 1.

Kessler had no effect on winning or losing until after Christmas.

Mild surprises... JC made improvements on both sides of the ball. Sexton is having his most efficient season. KO started the season shooting 50%+ from three.

JC is exactly as you would expect with added playing time based on his past.
Sexton's last full season was 24ppg and 35mins per game. Not being able to even put up the slightest of challenge to Conley's spot was a big disappointment. On the plus side being healthy (at least from the knee injury) a major plus, as we've seen with Lonzo Ball nothing's guaranteed.
KO has been about a 11/5 player with 37 % from 3 his whole career. With the Jazz he's been 12/5 with 40 %. No surprises there.

Tanking, rebuilding, retooling, etc. whatever you want to call it.

You can't just decide that completely different things mean the same.

I don't think they wanted to sink to the levels of Houston/SA... but I think they thought they'd win at about a 35 win pace for a while and could swap out other parts to get bottom 5-6.

Why would any FO decide to tank, but on purpose to do it badly? Why 5-6 and not 1-3? For what end?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It is the definition.

You can do other things at the same time as you're tanking, of course. But tanking is losing.

Tanking is offloading talent to lose more than you would have otherwise... it can be accompanied by many things... we made multiple trades that caused us to lose more than we would have otherwise.

Kessler had no effect on winning or losing until after Christmas.

Wrong.

JC is exactly as you would expect with added playing time based on his past.

Doubt you watched him last year. He has made improvements in passing and on defense. They are clear if you had watched him for multiple years... I have.

Sexton's last full season was 24ppg and 35mins per game. Not being able to even put up the slightest of challenge to Conley's spot was a big disappointment. On the plus side being healthy (at least from the knee injury) a major plus, as we've seen with Lonzo Ball nothing's guaranteed.

Coming off an injury in a new role he has played very well... maybe even better than expected. He has been way better on defense than he was in Cleveland in his last healthy year.

KO has been about a 11/5 player with 37 % from 3 his whole career. With the Jazz he's been 12/5 with 40 %. No surprises there.


You can't just decide that completely different things mean the same.

The terms so often walk hand in hand with losing basketball games that yes I can decide... literally every poster has their definition of what they consider tanking, rebuilding, etc. Its just like calling my buddies multi level marketing company a pyramid scheme.

Why would any FO decide to tank, but on purpose to do it badly? Why 5-6 and not 1-3? For what end?

https://theathletic.com/4243267/2023/02/23/victor-wembanyama-nba-draft-lottery/

Read that article... talks about the recent history of tanking. Yeah some teams tank all the way to the bottom but many do it to get to 6-8 and the vast majority of the tanking happens post AS break. So go ask all those GMs why they would do it? The answers are fairly obvious.

 

[Eddie Zero]

Oh the great tank debate lol
We were never in FULL TANK MODE. we still are not.
We obviously blew it upt last summer, and the need to tank was negated by the excellent value in assets that were brought in.
We kept the one's we wanted to at the deadline and ditched the rest.
I think it is fairly obvious the only way we are getting a top 4 pick is long odds luck.
I called us being a 500 team and finishing late lottery after play in losses. I bet that still happens barring injuries.
imo We should probably lose as much as we can against the Spurs and anyone else clearly tanking though to lessen any other WC team from getting Wemby.
I only want to see him in the East if he isn't a Jazzman

 

[framer]

I'm fairly certain that if you swapped out Kessler's pre Christmas minutes with Doke or even a Tony Bradley, we would have lost more games. The bench he was anchoring at that point was very good.

At this point I am just as confident in our big man development as I am a wide open Sexton corner 3 which is straight money.

 

[framer]

I also think that our brass greatly underestimated the value of Lauri and Walker. It would be really awesome for our future if they saw clearly what we were getting, but I really doubt it.

They likely saw us as a bottom 6 team. Just about everyone else did too.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I also think that our brass greatly underestimated the value of Lauri and Walker. It would be really awesome for our future if they saw clearly what we were getting, but I really doubt it.

They likely saw us as a bottom 6 team. Just about everyone else did too.

Before the season started... if I had told you and everyone else here the Jazz were either 10-3 or 3-10 in our first 13 games and I'd give you a million dollars if you got the right answer... what percentage of folks would have picked 3-10? Consider how hard the schedule was to start the year.

 

[The Midnight]

*sad face*

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I also think that our brass greatly underestimated the value of Lauri and Walker. It would be really awesome for our future if they saw clearly what we were getting, but I really doubt it.

They likely saw us as a bottom 6 team. Just about everyone else did too.

Or maybe the Jazz arent actually tanking.....

For the 1000000th time, if they really wanted to tank, they would have sold off Clarkson/KO for 2nd round picks. Winning isnt the priority, but they havent prioritized losing either.

 

[framer]

Or maybe the Jazz arent actually tanking.....

For the 1000000th time, if they really wanted to tank, they would have sold off Clarkson/KO for 2nd round picks. Winning isnt the priority, but they havent prioritized losing either.

No I think they are stoked about what happened. I am just not positive they planned it that way.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

No I think they are stoked about what happened. I am just not positive they planned it that way.

I doubt there is any actual plan other than acquire as many 1st round assets as possible without trading players you want long-term.

 

[Jingled]

View: https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/status/1628974617305178112