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Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

KqWIN said:
I mean…that’s almost exactly what I had it pegged as lol.

We just saw this with MIN. I don’t think the McDaniels interest was a fake. I think if MIN did not care for McDaniels the Jazz would have taken him instead of an additional pick.

I think the same sort of question is happening right now. Would Danny rather have Grimes than the distant pick….I think it’s pretty similar to the McDaniels situation but NYK isn’t as firm on keeping Grimes.
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Sure but that’s a subpar package. I want the 2029 1st over every single player being mentioned.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You don't know how GMs see it.... GMs are also not all of the same mind. I think Ainge absolutely values it. Is it a necessity? Who knows? I know that Ainge has turned unprotected picks and swaps into Tatum and Brown and he used the potential of another unprotected pick to land Kyrie.

Some GMs don't give a **** at all cuz they are likely on the chopping block.

If I was a GM I want that 2029 pick for sure. I'm gonna go ahead and guess that Ainge thinks its fairly valuable. I don't think it is under/over valued by one side or the other.
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Like I said, Ainge might be the type of GM…but as I also said you were not wrong about crappy teams being afraid of trading those long term picks. It’s two sided. There are lot of ways it falls apart. If it can get done another way, I think it will. I don’t think Ainge turns down every trade that does not include 2029.

I think we’re in the same spot with MIN and McDaniels….but this time we will get the player (Grimes most likely) instead of the pick.
 
Based on teh tea leaves... I think we asked for 23/25/27/29 and a couple swaps... likely wanted 2 of the other picks they own plus Grimes, Toppin, Quickley, Fournier, Reddish. That is a crazy package. My guess is they have their reservations and it starts with Grimes because of the fit with their projected backcourt. If that is the only sticking point maybe we relent or get some smaller asset for letting them have Grimes.

I think Danny's priority is the premium picks the Knicks own, then the other picks, then the young guys they like most.
 
margodydek said:
This was part of the brilliance in Ainge waiting until after FA started to trade with Minnesota, and not do it at the draft. By waiting, he could nab the 2029 pick. Couldn't have done that if they did the trade at the draft.
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That pick has protections. McDaniels would have been better.
 
KqWIN said:
Like I said, Ainge might be the type of GM…but as I also said you were not wrong about crappy teams being afraid of trading those long term picks. It’s two sided. There are lot of ways it falls apart. If it can get done another way, I think it will. I don’t think Ainge turns down every trade that does not include 2029.

I think we’re in the same spot with MIN and McDaniels….but this time we will get the player (Grimes most likely) instead of the pick.
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What kind of logic is this... did I say Ainge turns down every trade that does not include a 2029 pick? The goal is to get unprotected picks... they can only give 4 of those... those are the 4 biggest assets in this trade imo and I wouldn't think we'd just give those back for a guy like Grimes. Would no 2029 pick blow up the trade? IDK - we are getting a **** ton of stuff so I don't know where Ainge draws lines.

Far out unprotected picks are more valuable than lotto protected picks that convey sooner imo and I think GMs would agree.

I actually think you have it backwards... Grimes is way more important to them than us... we aren't trying to compete why do we need a promising young role player in a 3 and D type? They have a tiny backcourt and need 3 and D wing help... you think Leon Rose is more concerned about winning next year or 2029?
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
What kind of logic is this... did I say Ainge turns down every trade that does not include a 2029 pick? The goal is to get unprotected picks... they can only give 4 of those... those are the 4 biggest assets in this trade imo and I wouldn't think we'd just give those back for a guy like Grimes. Would no 2029 pick blow up the trade? IDK - we are getting a **** ton of stuff so I don't know where Ainge draws lines.

Far out unprotected picks are more valuable than lotto protected picks that convey sooner imo and I think GMs would agree.

I actually think you have it backwards... Grimes is way more important to them than us... we aren't trying to compete why do we need a promising young role player in a 3 and D type? They have a tiny backcourt and need 3 and D wing help... you think Leon Rose is more concerned about winning next year or 2029?
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You didn’t, but that’s why I’m asking the question. If he doesn’t turn down any offer that doesn’t include 2029, that means a package exists that won’t include that pick. I think it’s more likely that the package that Danny says yes to doesn’t include the pick, which could be for many reasons as I’ve said before.

You can have your own personal feelings about the pick, I think it’s more likely that the decision makers on both sides land on a deal without it. For it to happen, Danny would have to value it more than NYK and he would also have to value it more than whatever else NYK would give instead. Don’t think NYK is guarding Grimes the same way MIN held onto McDaniels.

My best guess is that Jazz asked for 2029 and Grimes in addition to the package you outlined earlier. I think they “only” end up with Grimes. 23/25/27 + Two other firsts + swaps + Quickley/Toppin/Grimes/Fournier is what I think gets done.
 
KqWIN said:
You didn’t, but that’s why I’m asking the question. If he doesn’t turn down any offer that doesn’t include 2029, that means a package exists that won’t include that pick. I think it’s more likely that the package that Danny says yes to doesn’t include the pick, which could be for many reasons as I’ve said before.

You can have your own personal feelings about the pick, I think it’s more likely that the decision makers on both sides land on a deal without it. For it to happen, Danny would have to value it more than NYK and he would also have to value it more than whatever else NYK would give instead. Don’t think NYK is guarding Grimes the same way MIN held onto McDaniels.

My best guess is that Jazz asked for 2029 and Grimes in addition to the package you outlined earlier. I think they “only” end up with Grimes. 23/25/27 + Two other firsts + swaps + Quickley/Toppin/Grimes/Fournier is what I think gets done.
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You are the king of "i'm not arguing your made up thing I didn't say". Yeah of course there is a package they would take that doesn't include the 29 pick... its a weird line to draw... in your scenario you outlined when do we get swaps... 24/26/28 or is 28 just too far?

I think NY would prioritize Grimes over the 29 pick... even if that is incredibly short sighted. I am sure we would too unless Danny is bonkers high on Grimes for some reason.

All along our stated priority by dudes that are in the know has been getting picks... they have stated concerns about gutting the roster for him in multiple reports. I see the value gap going the opposite way you do.
 
KqWIN said:
You didn’t, but that’s why I’m asking the question. If he doesn’t turn down any offer that doesn’t include 2029, that means a package exists that won’t include that pick. I think it’s more likely that the package that Danny says yes to doesn’t include the pick, which could be for many reasons as I’ve said before.

You can have your own personal feelings about the pick, I think it’s more likely that the decision makers on both sides land on a deal without it. For it to happen, Danny would have to value it more than NYK and he would also have to value it more than whatever else NYK would give instead. Don’t think NYK is guarding Grimes the same way MIN held onto McDaniels.

My best guess is that Jazz asked for 2029 and Grimes in addition to the package you outlined earlier. I think they “only” end up with Grimes. 23/25/27 + Two other firsts + swaps + Quickley/Toppin/Grimes/Fournier is what I think gets done.
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That would be beautiful. I'm meh on Grimes and would probably rather have the '29 pick, but whatever.

There's a part of me that would like the 24/26/28 picks to ensure we have multiple firsts in each of the next seven drafts (holy ****), but I keep falling back to as much draft capital as possible for 2023 in case we need to do some maneuvering.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You are the king of "i'm not arguing your made up thing I didn't say". Yeah of course there is a package they would take that doesn't include the 29 pick... its a weird line to draw... in your scenario you outlined when do we get swaps... 24/26/28 or is 28 just too far?

I think NY would prioritize Grimes over the 29 pick... even if that is incredibly short sighted. I am sure we would too unless Danny is bonkers high on Grimes for some reason.

All along our stated priority by dudes that are in the know has been getting picks... they have stated concerns about gutting the roster for him in multiple reports. I see the value gap going the opposite way you do.
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I’m establishing that line, because that’s what I’m talking about. If there’s a package that can be done with or without it, which one is more likely.

There’s just a lot of uncertainty an ambiguity in how that pick is valued from either side. You yourself mentioned the hesitations the Knicks would have, those are valid. I also think there are reasons which I have already outlined that would have UTA prefer a deal without it as well.

There is the report that the Jazz have prioritizing the picks which would contradict my guess…but there’s also a lot of Grimes interest talk and if it comes down to it I think Grimes is more likely to be in the deal. That’s just how I’m reading the tea leaves anyways. I felt really good about the MIA-NYK discussion a few days ago, we’ll see how I feel about this one (hopefully) soon.

EDIT: About the pick swaps, I don’t really have a clue how I’d value those or how they’re seen by teams. Seems like teams are happy toss them into these Star player deals.
 
I would do pick swaps as far into the future as possible. I think they would be extremely valuable. For instance is the Jazz in '29 had the 28th pick and the Knicks had the 8th pick, normally it would take 3 picks to move from 28 to 8. The assumption would be that the Jazz would have to be contending and the Knicks were still bad. Conversely, having a pick swap too soon is useless. For instance, next year if the Jazz have the 4th worst record and the Knicks have the 16th best record, a pick swap would be worthless. I wouldn't do a pick swap until '26. '27, '28, '29 would be very valuable.
 
KqWIN said:
I’m establishing that line, because that’s what I’m talking about. If there’s a package that can be done with or without it, which one is more likely.

There’s just a lot of uncertainty an ambiguity in how that pick is valued from either side. You yourself mentioned the hesitations the Knicks would have, those are valid. I also think there are reasons which I have already outlined that would have UTA prefer a deal without it as well.

There is the report that the Jazz have prioritizing the picks which would contradict my guess…but there’s also a lot of Grimes interest talk and if it comes down to it I think Grimes is more likely to be in the deal. That’s just how I’m reading the tea leaves anyways. I felt really good about the MIA-NYK discussion a few days ago, we’ll see how I feel about this one (hopefully) soon.

EDIT: About the pick swaps, I don’t really have a clue how I’d value those or how they’re seen by teams. Seems like teams are happy toss them into these Star player deals.
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I don't think the bolded is true. I don't think we'd value Grimes over that pick unprotected. Its worth more individually than Grimes and it also has the benefit of creating an issue for future trades that would hamstring the Knicks and benefit us. It might honestly be near the top of the list as far as assets I'd want. I think Quickley and Toppin might be more valuable as players to us. Grimes being mentioned by name might mean he's a sticking point from NY's side. It might be a ploy to allow them to save some face.
 
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