Jazz are mediocre and on track to remain mediocre unless they make good moves

[NUMBERICA]

Jazz have 4 legit lotto picks that they drafted and a couple(?) more players obtained from other teams who were also lotto picks. If despite all this, this is going to be a middle-of-the-pack team then what does it say about our talent scouting/development? You have 4 guys on the team who were top 10 picks, you expect atleast a couple of them to be making a lot of noise (borderline all star) in their second or third years.

Most superstars get a chance not because they force their way onto the court, but that management gives them early and frequent opportunities. The path that John and Karl took to superstardom and the HOF is a pretty rare one, and it's frankly alarming that the Jazz think that that is the only path of development (as further evidenced by the embarrassment of how Sloan handled Deron in his rookie year [and very conceivably planted a poisonous seed very early in the process]).

yeah

 

[salo]

So just keep giving foye his 30 minutes per game and he will become the allstar that this team so desperately needs right?

not exactly what i'm getting at champ. i was pretty specific on foye and burks so i'm not sure how you f*cked that one up.

but if we need to go down that road, what you're saying is give minutes to burks even though he's out there free-wheeling, playing shaky D and shooting horrible percentages so that he can undoubtedly turn into the all-star this team so desperately needs, right?

 

[Revolution 9]

gonna go with wolf on this. burks hasn't blown me away with his defense or even his defensive effort.

the sample is certainly limited this year but unfortunately i don't think he's doing enough to warrant more minutes most of the time.
people talk about him being a scorer but i'm seeing a guy who always looks like he's out to get his.

frankly, our team doesn't need that right now. there are better offensive options whatever unit he's playing with and he needs to get with that program.
possibly that's part of the reason he isn't seeing the court, but i couldn't say for sure.
i do know that other 'scorers' in our system have been crucified by fans as chuckers for far less shots per minute but for some reason burks gets a 30 page thread of unconditional support.

anyway, i hope the kid gets his game together and starts making the most of his opportunities. demarre has forced his way into consistent playing time on the back of what i would consider a far inferior skill set overall. foye's ability to shoot the long ball is the only thing guaranteeing him minutes at this point and that's probably fair enough given we desperately needed outside shooting this offseason. take him out of the equation altogether and we start looking a bit shaky. despite the holes in his game foye would be good for 20 mins off the bench even on a good finals team.

as to the opening post, i would agree with some of the player evaluations. mo would be perfect for us in a jason terry (mavs era) type role. favours probably isn't going to be an all-star but should be very useful. kanter will be an effective big for years to come but still has a long way to go. marvin could be replaced by a first round pick in most drafts. either al or millsap could be solid starters/contributors on a very competitive team but we need something better than both as our first option if we want a run at a championship.

overall, i'm not disappointed or thrilled with our season so far. we're sitting about where i expected. the young guys are coming along slowly. we still can't win on the road. i think the jazz are trying to stay competitive and develop their young guys at the same time and only time will tell how successful we've been. i don't know how this forum would react if we actually traded our veterans, went with the young guys and spent a couple of years in the lottery like okc did. i don't think people would enjoy that as much as they think they might.

Watch the Lakers game again, and watch him on both sides of the floor. Get back to me when you are ready to apologize.

 

[salo]

haha! yeah sure thing buddy - i'll get right on that.

i presume we're still talking about burks here and we're obviously gonna have to agree to disagree on it before this turns into a ten page sh*tfight.

(for the record though, pulling out a single instance of satisfactory defensive effort doesn't make you any more right than me if i were to direct you to any one of his boneheaded and laissez faire nights.)

like i stated in my first post; i'm all for the guy getting it together and earning some playing time. i don't know why he's not getting any minutes but i'm sure as hell not going to apologise to anyone for it. so many on here seem to think they've got it all figured out - fire corbin and burks becomes an all-star. trade jefferson and we'll win a title. it's gotten well beyond comical. if any of us had any real credentials, insight or unique knowledge about the situation we'd be on a sideline somewhere getting paid, not talking smack on a forum and pointing fingers at coaches and execs for their favorite unproven player not turning into their personal basketball wet dream.

passion and support for your team is one thing but it just seems to me like too many people around here are ready to turn vigilante over a guy like burks who for all we've learned so far could possibly be the next kirk snyder, deshawn stevenson, morris almond, junie lewis or corey freakin crowder. what happened to all the intelligent conversation that used to go down?

anyway, i'm out.

go jazz etc.

 

[Qman]

Comparing Carroll to Burks is retarded. Carroll is a tough energy guy who can sometimes shoot. He is a valuable role player. His best skill is playing hard all the time.

Burks is a superior athlete and basketball player. He is an inferior role player to Carroll. Yes, Burks' defensive effort needs to become more consistent. When his effort is there his defense is very good. Burks might be the best finisher on the team. He certainly the best penetrator. We need to find a way to maximize his talents. Perhaps he is suited to be a scorer off the bench.

Also if you are focusing on who is better for this team right now. Carroll fits the role better. However Burks' talent is far superior. So you have to make a choice is Burks talented enough to be a star? If so you live with the growing pains. If he isn't then you made a mistake. Burks isn't going to be a very good role player.

 

[zman1527]

The hypothetical I'm talking about is that 'the Jazz could trade these guys for x, y or z." The Jazz have never played someone to showcase their talent for trade. This is not the style (and I don't disagree). The problem is is that we're grasping at this to explain baffling game-decisions. Last year we kept saying we were playing Bell and Howard to showcase them for a trade. This was not the case. We were playing them, apparently, because we thought they put us in the est position to win, as evidenced by Howard being reinserted to the starting lineup after being injured in the playoffs. The Jazz don't allocate playing time based off hypotheticals (trades), they allocate playing time off what they think will make us competitive and no matter how hard it is to swallow, this is honestly the low we've sunk to. We are playing Al and Paul big minutes, and sitting Favors and Kanter, not because we're showcasing for trade, but because we think we haven't hit our peak with this team and we want to see that unfold.

Totally agree. I think that Ty sees the great games, beating the Spurs, and in his head that is where the team should be and can be. He thinks they are on the cusp of greatness, they just need to execute a little better. And he is a firm believer in the vets, having just said something along the lines of "road wins come from having veteran players who know what they are about". Notice how when they got destroyed by the suns that Al and Sap got MORE minutes than normal and Fav/Kanter got fewer. And Hayward gets pulled if he is a bit off, while Foye gets his minutes regardless. Corbin is not a developer of young talent.

 

[Revolution 9]

haha! yeah sure thing buddy - i'll get right on that.

i presume we're still talking about burks here and we're obviously gonna have to agree to disagree on it before this turns into a ten page ****fight

(for the record though, pulling out a single instance of satisfactory defensive effort doesn't make you any more right than me if i were to direct you to any one of his boneheaded and laissez faire nights.)

like i stated in my first post; i'm all for the guy getting it together and earning some playing time. i don't know why he's not getting any minutes but i'm sure as hell not going to apologise to anyone for it. so many on here seem to think they've got it all figured out - fire corbin and burks becomes an all-star. trade jefferson and we'll win a title. it's gotten well beyond comical. if any of us had any real credentials, insight or unique knowledge about the situation we'd be on a sideline somewhere getting paid, not talking smack on a forum and pointing fingers at coaches and execs for their favorite unproven player not turning into their personal basketball wet dream.

passion and support for your team is one thing but it just seems to me like too many people around here are ready to turn vigilante over a guy like burks who for all we've learned so far could possibly be the next kirk snyder, deshawn stevenson, morris almond, junie lewis or corey freakin crowder. what happened to all the intelligent conversation that used to go down?

anyway, i'm out.

go jazz etc.

We love to make a passing attempt at intelligent conversation around here, but a heads up avoiding the filter is not a good way to start.

I just don't see anything that resembles "kirk snyder, deshawn stevenson, morris almond, junie lewis or corey freakin crowder". Salo it seems you have your mind made up.
You agree with Corbin, and think for whatever reason he hasn't earned minutes. You are fine with Foye getting all the playtime, and it's all on Burks. You use extremes for your arguement. Oh we just fire Corbin, and Burks becomes an All Star. Not too many people are saying he's an
allstar. Who knows Salo maybe Alec is a jerk, and a pain in the *** behind closed doors. Although Corbin said himself at the beginning of year Alec worked his butt off, and deserved to play. Which makes it hard to understand.

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

We love to make a passing attempt at intelligent conversation around here, but a heads up avoiding the filter is not a good way to start.

I just don't see anything that resembles "kirk snyder, deshawn stevenson, morris almond, junie lewis or corey freakin crowder". Salo it seems you have your mind made up.
You agree with Corbin, and think for whatever reason he hasn't earned minutes. You are fine with Foye getting all the playtime, and it's all on Burks. You use extremes for your arguement. Oh we just fire Corbin, and Burks becomes an All Star. Not too many people are saying he's an
allstar. Who knows Salo maybe Alec is a jerk, and a pain in the *** behind closed doors. Although Corbin said himself at the beginning of year Alec worked his butt off, and deserved to play. Which makes it hard to understand.

I thought he was just using extremes in some things to prove a point and that some of the people on the fire Corbin, play Burks side are using extremes. He did say he doesn't know why he's getting DNP's and would like to See Burks play some minutes he's just not as upset for the reasons he explained.
I am in that thinking as well, I do not think Burks deserves DNP's and would like to see him getting some minutes like at least 10min a game and then go from there to see if he can get more minutes like I hope he could.

 

[salo]

Comparing Carroll to Burks is retarded. Carroll is a tough energy guy who can sometimes shoot. He is a valuable role player. His best skill is playing hard all the time.

Burks is a superior athlete and basketball player. He is an inferior role player to Carroll. Yes, Burks' defensive effort needs to become more consistent. When his effort is there his defense is very good. Burks might be the best finisher on the team. He certainly the best penetrator. We need to find a way to maximize his talents. Perhaps he is suited to be a scorer off the bench.

Also if you are focusing on who is better for this team right now. Carroll fits the role better. However Burks' talent is far superior. So you have to make a choice is Burks talented enough to be a star? If so you live with the growing pains. If he isn't then you made a mistake. Burks isn't going to be a very good role player.

your flagrant use of the term 'retarded' aside, we seem to agree on many things qman.

1) between burks and carroll there is little comparison. burks has the greater skill set. my point was that carroll found a way to get minutes and to me it indicates that corbin will give minutes to players who earn them and keep giving that consistent effort.
2) burks: yes, more consistency at both ends required (might come with some extra playing time, might not). terrific finisher, pretty good quicks and handles when penetrating. i'd also add that a few of our guys need to give more consistent effort if we want to reach our potential as a playing group this season.

not sure if i'm getting the premise of your final comments though. i don't necessarily think it's superstar or bust for alec. he could well become a role player in the way you described earlier, as a scorer off the bench.

going on a lot of these responses it's possible that i'm not communicating my views on burks very well. i'm far from a hater. i would love to see him tear it up, the same way i once wanted to see a young kirk snyder, deshawn stevenson, morris almond etc become a long-term solution at SG for us. unfortunately i'm not in a position to influence his playing time or career trajectory so i don't see any point in blowing up online about those running the team and the organisation. i'm just trying to provide a little balance to the ongoing mass hysteria re: a gifted second year guard of indeterminate potential.