Jazz Offseason Plan

[Handlogten's Heros]

Also, would we really be as high on Batum if we didn't play against him? Not saying he wouldn't be a good pick up, but part of him looking so great against us was Quin refusing to adjust and ceding all those open looks for Batum. Opposing coaches may not be so rigid.

The Quin stuff is starting to get a little louder for me. Listening to Dan Clayton on his pod and I don't think Quin would adjust to a small ball lineup at all... so we might get one of these guys and use them just like a backup 4 instead of a fungible piece to open up other options. I would want to add Rudy Gay and see if Quin does it. Batum and Green both kinda proved its a viable option. Gay is better suited for it than both of them imo as he's bigger and a better rebounder. If Quin won't at least dabble with it with Gay on the roster I think he's just never going to do it.

I would still like Batum. He's just a good well rounded basketball player. He's kind of a perfect role player and just plays really smart. I think he would also be a guy that could start and replace Bojan if there was a trade for something different or if there was an injury. He could also fill in for Royce. He's the type of guy you need to make a long playoff run.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah he's got RHJ as 2.9M and last year he got a non-guaranteed camp deal, was waived, unemployed for a while, then finally got a 2-way, I believe. I'm also a little confused why Aminu is on the list.

He had a player option that he opted in... Hollinger referenced it in his article.

 

[infection]

The Quin stuff is starting to get a little louder for me. Listening to Dan Clayton on his pod and I don't think Quin would adjust to a small ball lineup at all... so we might get one of these guys and use them just like a backup 4 instead of a fungible piece to open up other options. I would want to add Rudy Gay and see if Quin does it. Batum and Green both kinda proved its a viable option. Gay is better suited for it than both of them imo as he's bigger and a better rebounder. If Quin won't at least dabble with it with Gay on the roster I think he's just never going to do it.

I would still like Batum. He's just a good well rounded basketball player. He's kind of a perfect role player and just plays really smart. I think he would also be a guy that could start and replace Bojan if there was a trade for something different or if there was an injury. He could also fill in for Royce. He's the type of guy you need to make a long playoff run.

Maybe early next week I'll get around to posting my tl;dr thread. A lot of it has to do with Quin. The spoiler version is that what we really need is a legitimate assistant coach that Quin looks up to. That would be the big splash and it would have more impact that any of the other fringe things we're doing. The great thing is we can do both and don't have to choose one or the other, or choose one and ignore the other. Right now we're blaming it on personnel but there are still many measurable things we should have seen from him even if you didn't have the right personnel.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Maybe early next week I'll get around to posting my tl;dr thread. A lot of it has to do with Quin. The spoiler version is that what we really need is a legitimate assistant coach that Quin looks up to. That would be the big splash and it would have more impact that any of the other fringe things we're doing. The great thing is we can do both and don't have to choose one or the other, or choose one and ignore the other. Right now we're blaming it on personnel but there are still many measurable things we should have seen from him even if you didn't have the right personnel.

I worry Quin just ran out DL... JZ is the interim guy.... and now Quin has all the power! Would love to have another coach in there that would help us be a little more flexible. Not sure JZ has the power to put a guy in that place if Quin isn't 100% on board.

I've already started hearing the narrative from Locke that we just lost due to an outlier performance by Mann and we just didn't get lucky and we just need to stay the course and the system actually worked beautifully... yada yada yada.

 

[infection]

I worry Quin just ran out DL... JZ is the interim guy.... and now Quin has all the power! Would love to have another coach in there that would help us be a little more flexible. Not sure JZ has the power to put a guy in that place if Quin isn't 100% on board.

I've already started hearing the narrative from Locke that we just lost due to an outlier performance by Mann and we just didn't get lucky and we just need to stay the course and the system actually worked beautifully... yada yada yada.

It's partially true but you also don't put yourself in a situation where someone can get lucky. Both Quin and DL have shown that they're trying to play a form of moneyball but they really don't understand moneyball.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I worry Quin just ran out DL... JZ is the interim guy.... and now Quin has all the power! Would love to have another coach in there that would help us be a little more flexible. Not sure JZ has the power to put a guy in that place if Quin isn't 100% on board.

I've already started hearing the narrative from Locke that we just lost due to an outlier performance by Mann and we just didn't get lucky and we just need to stay the course and the system actually worked beautifully... yada yada yada.

Yyyyyyyyyyyyeah. Or... you could just stop the thing that is killing you and preserve your gigantic ****ing lead?

The only thing that rivals sheer stupidity is when overthinking yields an even stupider action. Jazz are real good at this, lately (using terms such as "outlier" to describe a 39% shooter from 3 hitting wide open corner threes... maybe the guy is just gonna keep making the shot he keeps making if you keep giving it to him).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It's partially true but you also don't put yourself in a situation where someone can get lucky. Both Quin and DL have shown that they're trying to play a form of moneyball but they really don't understand moneyball.

It makes me laugh because Locke has been talking about now instead of getting prospects at the end of the bench they will look for vets that can help you win if you need to play them or that provide something in a certain situation... they way he describes it kinda sounds like its some new concept except the internet dummies were kinda spouting this **** for a couple years now.

The moneyball thing is funny... I know you are already on this bus but it seems like they think money ball is spending years developing a cheap rotation player like Torrey Craig... but if you do it in-house you get more value because that guy is on a minimum deal... that's a solid plan until Torrey Craig is available at the minimum.

Should you have 2-3 spots for development guys that can provide "moneyball" value? Yup! Should you have 7 spots dedicated to prospects? Not if you are trying to win a title.

 

[infection]

Yyyyyyyyyyyyeah. Or... you could just stop the thing that is killing you and preserve your gigantic ****ing lead?

The only thing that rivals sheer stupidity is when overthinking yields an even stupider action. Jazz are real good at this, lately (using terms such as "outlier" to describe a 39% shooter from 3 hitting wide open corner threes... maybe the guy is just gonna keep making the shot he keeps making if you keep giving it to him).

Bro, he flipped a coin 9 times and it was heads each time. Coin flip is 50/50 so that means that the next flip is like 900% certain to be tails. Law of averages. Moneyball.

 

[Jingled]

I've already started hearing the narrative from Locke that we just lost due to an outlier performance by Mann and we just didn't get lucky and we just need to stay the course and the system actually worked beautifully... yada yada yada.

I've noticed this too. In fact he was saying this again this morning in an interview with David James. Feels like he's changed his tune in recent days from what he was saying early in the offseason.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I've noticed this too. In fact he was saying this again this morning in an interview with David James. Feels like he's changed his tune in recent days from what he was saying early in the offseason.

There is certainly a luck aspect to every title team... the issue is that doesn't get to be the way you get to justify the continuation of your strategy...

He also said some stuff about how maybe instead of a first round pick you use that money for a minimum deal like Frank Kaminsky... which is funny because they aren't mutually exclusive... you just do both. It leads me to believe we will be trading out of the first round, which may or may not be a good thing.

If you look at what the Bucks and Suns did they both fortified their rosters and have flexible pieces... they both helped themselves be lucky... you have to do both. Say they sign Bry Forbes and already have Donte Divencenzo on the roster... did they say I guess we can let pat go? I mean Bryn has a true shooting percentage of 1000% so Pat won't be needed... but then Pat ends up being key because Donte goes out and Bryn is unplayable in certain spots.

They also went out and added Tucker. They cut Craig but were looking for constant improvement.

Suns added Craig who filled in for Nader... they also fortified their bench with Galloway, Moore when they already had Jevon Carter... they added Kaminsky as an insurance option at the minimum. They didn't need to do all those things because Cam Payne was awesome... but if he turned his ankle or wasn't good they had options.

We have had clear and obvious needs for 24 months and really not done anything meaningful to address some of them. We declared it good enough because we mostly had good health this season. Didn't feel the need to have any change ups or backup plans... even though you will almost always need to find one backup plan in the playoffs. Then when we have an injury or two and another guy gets hot we were just "unlucky".

 

[infection]

There is certainly a luck aspect to every title team... the issue is that doesn't get to be the way you get to justify the continuation of your strategy...

He also said some stuff about how maybe instead of a first round pick you use that money for a minimum deal like Frank Kaminsky... which is funny because they aren't mutually exclusive... you just do both. It leads me to believe we will be trading out of the first round, which may or may not be a good thing.

If you look at what the Bucks and Suns did they both fortified their rosters and have flexible pieces... they both helped themselves be lucky... you have to do both. Say they sign Bry Forbes and already have Donte Divencenzo on the roster... did they say I guess we can let pat go? I mean Bryn has a true shooting percentage of 1000% so Pat won't be needed... but then Pat ends up being key because Donte goes out and Bryn is unplayable in certain spots.

They also went out and added Tucker. They cut Craig but were looking for constant improvement.

Suns added Craig who filled in for Nader... they also fortified their bench with Galloway, Moore when they already had Jevon Carter... they added Kaminsky as an insurance option at the minimum. They didn't need to do all those things because Cam Payne was awesome... but if he turned his ankle or wasn't good they had options.

We have had clear and obvious needs for 24 months and really not done anything meaningful to address some of them. We declared it good enough because we mostly had good health this season. Didn't feel the need to have any change ups or backup plans... even though you will almost always need to find one backup plan in the playoffs. Then when we have an injury or two and another guy gets hot we were just "unlucky".

Bro, if you're creating a plan B (or C or D), it's only because you don't believe in your plan A. And why steal time and resources away from plan A to shore up a bunch of other plans? Hope for plan A. Close your eyes and believe. Lol internet fans are so dumb.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

There is certainly a luck aspect to every title team... the issue is that doesn't get to be the way you get to justify the continuation of your strategy...

He also said some stuff about how maybe instead of a first round pick you use that money for a minimum deal like Frank Kaminsky... which is funny because they aren't mutually exclusive... you just do both. It leads me to believe we will be trading out of the first round, which may or may not be a good thing.

If you look at what the Bucks and Suns did they both fortified their rosters and have flexible pieces... they both helped themselves be lucky... you have to do both. Say they sign Bry Forbes and already have Donte Divencenzo on the roster... did they say I guess we can let pat go? I mean Bryn has a true shooting percentage of 1000% so Pat won't be needed... but then Pat ends up being key because Donte goes out and Bryn is unplayable in certain spots.

They also went out and added Tucker. They cut Craig but were looking for constant improvement.

Suns added Craig who filled in for Nader... they also fortified their bench with Galloway, Moore when they already had Jevon Carter... they added Kaminsky as an insurance option at the minimum. They didn't need to do all those things because Cam Payne was awesome... but if he turned his ankle or wasn't good they had options.

We have had clear and obvious needs for 24 months and really not done anything meaningful to address some of them. We declared it good enough because we mostly had good health this season. Didn't feel the need to have any change ups or backup plans... even though you will almost always need to find one backup plan in the playoffs. Then when we have an injury or two and another guy gets hot we were just "unlucky".

I definitely agree with you. Playing a little devil's advocate, I think our front office would be correct in arguing that no matter what fringe moves we made, we weren't winning a title with two of our All Stars injured.
Hopefully the front office is able to see past the injuries and realize we need to be much better on the margins to put ourselves in the best position to win a title.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I definitely agree with you. Playing a little devil's advocate, I think our front office would be correct in arguing that no matter what fringe moves we made, we weren't winning a title with two of our All Stars injured.
Hopefully the front office is able to see past the injuries and realize we need to be much better on the margins to put ourselves in the best position to win a title.

Right… maybe. If you have better moves on the fringe maybe you sweep Memphis and Mike isn’t out the clips series. Maybe you redo the whole offseason and get better option for MLE and maybe you pick someone like
Mcdaniels or Bane that has trade value and allows you to get a piece. Maybe nothing changes… but you need both things… or call it two kinda of luck… you need the luck you make and the luck the basketball gods bestow upon you for no reason.

I don’t think Milwaukee gets past the Nets if they don’t trade for Tucker. Suns got a big boost from Craig. Clips don’t add Batum and things look really different for them.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I think Bane *may* have changed things, especially with the Conley injury.

I have a real hard time getting that upset over McDaniels though. He was awful most of the season. He wouldn't have played for Utah most of the season and would have been too raw to put in for the playoffs. I think most of his positive stuff came after Minnesota had already lost a ton of games and there was no pressure. Now that could change in the future if he continues to develop, but simply for last season McDaniels would have 99% likely changed nothing.

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

Racist.

nice catch however it would not have been racist but bigotted

 

[Jazzman12]

I've noticed this too. In fact he was saying this again this morning in an interview with David James. Feels like he's changed his tune in recent days from what he was saying early in the offseason.

This is all starting to scare the **** outta me. Somebody already mentioned it a few pages ago, but it seems like our offseason battle cry heading into this year was: “We lost in the bubble because Bogey was hurt!” and now the battle cry for this offseason is: “We lost in the 2nd round because Conley was out and Donovan was banged up!”.

I really don’t mind bringing Conley back as I personally don’t think a sign and trade is super realistic and Conley walking for nothing puts us in an awful position but then I worry that Conley returning gives our FO and coaching staff the idea that we just need to stay healthy and get a little lucky come playoff time.

Just my opinion, but you absolutely CANNOT bring Conley back without adding another legit Point Guard to the roster because whether it’s during the regular season, playoffs, or both, Conley is going to miss stretches of games. We also CANNOT go into next season without making additions to the roster that can provide an answer for when opponents go small, but even if JZ makes the appropriate moves, there’s no telling at this point if Quin will be willing to make those adjustments in his coaching philosophy.

It seems to me that Quin’s mentality is something along the lines of: “The regular season proved that my system and my rotations worked. We just got snake bit in the playoffs.” If that is indeed his line of thinking, next season is already ****ed.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Memphis is a team no one is really talking about. They have a lot of assets... they actually should have like $23M in space once they pass on picking up Winslow's option. They have a lot of players... they really need to do a 3 for 1 type of deal. I wonder what their plan is... what if those assholes try and bring Mike back.

I just wonder what position they try to upgrade. The rumor is they gave Duarte a promise... they have Allen, Bane, Brooks, Melton already. Do they upgrade at center... power forward or are they still waiting on JJJ. They have a real opportunity this offseason.

 

[KqWIN]

Of course Quin thinks his system works. Why else would he stick to the same stuff year after year? He is the weakest link in our defense. Until he demands more from players besides Rudy we have are going to get cooked.

 

[slc]

Probably would not be a bad idea to trade the #30 for two or more second round picks
That would save some guaranteed money for cap purposes

 

[Miggs]

It;s literally just one person who brings him up.

I don't think Brantley or Oni or even Mudiay have an elite NBA skill. We went after Thomas because we thought he was an elite NBA shooter.

With Ntilikina, we are definitely getting an elite NBA perimeter defender. He has that elite NBA skill. We have the need for players with that skill.

And there are more things at play for Ntilikina. Even though Mudiay did have a pretty good year with us, Frank would have more connections within the team. Just like getting Favors last year was lauded for his on and off the court contributions, I think a Frank deal could be too.

No, we really don’t. It’s dumb. We don’t need a liability on the court ala Simmons or arguably, Gobert. Hell, he could literally never play minutes with Gobert because the offense would be so limited. We need guys who can do a bit of everything, not one thing really well and suck at most else. There’s a reason he was third on the Knicks depth chart at a position at which they’re terrible. I’d FAR rather have Payton, another very good defender but someone who can other things like rebound (8.1%) and pass (32.9%) at surprisingly very high rates. Hell, he’s been on such bad teams, in a real system like ours, I actually think he could shoot 34-35% from three. But Frankie just blows.