Jazz showdown: Deron vs. Stockton

[The Thriller]

Give Deron a player like Malone. Deron unfortunately had Boozer, who missed 1/3 of his total games. Karl missed maybe 3 games his entire career due to injury.

One thing that Deron does far better than John, insert himself and take over the scoring burden. Too often Stockton passed on the opportunity and gave the rock up for someone to screw up. In the 4th quarter, crunch time, you know Deron's going to take it. Whether he scores or drives into a wall and then complains at the refs for not being bailed out.... But he isn't passing it to Fess to drop ala Ostertag or AK47 to yell and flog his arms around ala Russel or Harpring to miss a layup/dunk ala Benoit.

 

[sirkickyass]

Deron is fighting for the title of best point guard presently playing; Stockton is in the best ever conversation.

maybe 4th

The point is, he's in the discussion. Deron isn't.

I think Magic is the greatest ever, but a lot of people like to distinguish between Magic who was sort of a power forward with a point guard skill set and prototypical point guards like Stockton and Isiah.

Others argue that Oscar wasn't really a point guard because he spent most of his career playing a combo guard role. I think there's room for debate on that issue.

Stockton/Isiah will get you in trouble around here. The most vitriolic comments I've ever gotten on the board were for suggesting that "reasonable people could disagree" as to which player was better.

 

[LiemD]

Dwill's a much better scorer so 1vs1 would be ownage. plus hes bigger and way more athletic. in their primes I would take stockton since dwill has yet to reach his prime

 

[ruca]

Deron is fighting for the title of best point guard presently playing; Stockton is in the best ever conversation.


maybe 4th


magic
oscar
isiah thomas-hate all you want but he has rings that stock dont
Stockton


Still top 5 is very very good and if dwill gets there well its going to take some work but the guy has the work ethic and the drive

bitch, is you tweakin?!

 

[Scorpjazz]

LOL @ Zeke.. pleeeease
He is top 10 but not top 3...wow
Fisher has 5 rings as the starting PG, I guess he is top 2 then...

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

LOL @ Zeke.. pleeeease
He is top 10 but not top 3...wow
Fisher has 5 rings as the starting PG, I guess he is top 2 then...

For you to totally dismiss Zeke like that is just as laughable. He had a killer instinct that Stockton could have used and it's pretty reasonable to think the Zeke's a top three. I personally wouldn't put him there but still.

I'm curious. Where would you rank Stockton?

 

[carolinajazz]

For you to totally dismiss Zeke like that is just as laughable. He had a killer instinct that Stockton could have used and it's pretty reasonable to think the Zeke's a top three. I personally wouldn't put him there but still.

I'm curious. Where would you rank Stockton?

....Stockton is #1......top pure point guard! If you can't accept our viewpoint then I don't know what else to tell you!!!

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

....Stockton is #1......top pure point guard! If you can't accept our viewpoint then I don't know what else to tell you!!!

In a strange kind of way, you to almost gotta admire someone who doggedly sticks with a bad argument.

Unless, of course, it's like Sarah Palin. When she sticks with a bad argument, it's data point # 1,000 proving what a complete moron she is.

 

[Scorpjazz]

For you to totally dismiss Zeke like that is just as laughable. He had a killer instinct that Stockton could have used and it's pretty reasonable to think the Zeke's a top three. I personally wouldn't put him there but still.

I'm curious. Where would you rank Stockton?

I never dismissed Zeke at all. Like I said, he is for sure top 10. Maybe even top 6-7.
I place Stockton #2, behind Magic. I dont go for the 'pure pg' thing. Stockton was AWESOME, but Magic was better. Simple.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

Deron is fighting for the title of best point guard presently playing; Stockton is in the best ever conversation.


maybe 4th


magic
oscar
isiah thomas-hate all you want but he has rings that stock dont
Stockton


Still top 5 is very very good and if dwill gets there well its going to take some work but the guy has the work ethic and the drive

Putting isiah thomas in front of stockton? Wow, my guess is- your probably not old enough to even remember isiah play. When isiah was getting his ring, he was helped by a group of guys that are still remembered as being a team with some of the meanest defense the game has ever seen. Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman. Stockton and the jazz were a threat for 16 years with guys like Malone. Stockton made washed up old sh*t bags play better. Stockton, would suite up with a broken leg and an eye ball poked out. Oh yeah and he's the all time leading STEALS AND ASSISTS LEADER IN NBA HISTORY. Good enough to get his statue outside of es arena. But yea your right isiah was way better!!! Oh yea your definately right. Thomas' basketball strength and intelligence has been proved by passing his knowlege along in his SUCCESSFUL coaching carrer. You you drop kick your own face through a closed glass window and save someone the dirty work.

 

[inoshishi]

Since I'm not really interested in carrying on this conversation in a decade, let's compare stats for the first 5 years of Stock's career vs. Deron.

Deron:
FG% - .467
3pt% - .361
FT% - .799
Asst - 9
Pts - 16.7
Rebs - 3.1
Steals - 1

Stockton:
FG% - .514
3pt% - .219
FT% - .812
Asst - 9.62
Pts - 10.6
Rebs - 1.1
Steals - 2.3


Based on this point in their careers, Deron's the man.

Deron started almost all of his first five years. Stockton didn't start full time until his 4th year because the Jazz already had an All Star point guard in Ricky Green. If you are judging them "on this point in their career," you should use the stats from "this point" not an average over five years. Here are their stats for their 5th year:

Deron:
FG% - .469
3pt% - .371
FT% - .801
Asst - 10.5
PTS - 18.7
Rebs - 4.0
Steals - 1.3

Stockton:
FG% - .538
3pt% - .242 (a down year, the year before was 0.358 and the year after was 0.416)
FT% - .863
Asst - 13.6
PTS - 17.1
Rebs - 3.0
Steals - 3.2

Based off these numbers, I take Stockton. I'm also old enough to have watched Stockton's entire career and based off of what I have witnessed, I take Stockton. That being said, Deron is awesome. Stockton is my favorite player ever, but I often wished he tried to take over the game more like he did in Game 6 of the WCF in 1997. Deron seems to have more of that in him and I'm glad that he does.

 

[Scat]

Deron has better power, speed, footwork, and stamina.

The only part of this that's true is Deron has more power. No way Deron has more stamina. I never even saw Stockton sweat let alone look tired. Speed and Footwork are about equal. Deron is probably a better dribbler but then again Stock simply didn't get fancy so who knows?

 

[fatalfame]

The only part of this that's true is Deron has more power. No way Deron has more stamina. I never even saw Stockton sweat let alone look tired. Speed and Footwork are about equal. Deron is probably a better dribbler but then again Stock simply didn't get fancy so who knows?

Dwill on average plays about 5 mins more per game than stock averaged. So maybe this lends some evidence to the "stamina" argument?

 

[Harambe]

Dwill on average plays about 5 mins more per game than stock averaged. So maybe this lends some evidence to the "stamina" argument?

Nope... just adds weight to the Eisley side of "who was better, Eisley or Price" argument.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I never dismissed Zeke at all. Like I said, he is for sure top 10. Maybe even top 6-7.
I place Stockton #2, behind Magic. I dont go for the 'pure pg' thing. Stockton was AWESOME, but Magic was better. Simple.

You are however dismissing him by essentially saying it's ridiculous ("wow") to put him in the top three (even though he chose to take over games and had a killer instinct) yet put in Stockton at #2, a guy who was great at winning games that mattered by deferring all the time as demonstrated by his assists. That's not a knock. But winners **** the prom queen.

 

[silesian]

soothsayer

...exactly! In Stockton your talking about a guy who has 2 prominent statistical records that will NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER be broken! Total assists and steals!!! Stockton's winning percentage both in the regular season and playoffs is very high as well! Right now, Deron is not even in the discussion....probably never will be.

NEVER EVER EVER is a VERY long time. Conventional wisdom that the 4 minute mile would NEVER EVER EVER be broken. And no one would EVER break Babe Ruth's home run record

Look at the game of basketball 40 years ago, not very much like it is today. Who knows about 40 years from now? What sort of training and conditioning could extend athlete's durability and career? How might the game rules be changed to become more "assist friendly"?

How far forward does your crystal ball accurately predict?

 

[Jazzman]

As a long time Jazz fan and I'm talking before they went to Utah I had to register and respond to this. I have seen Stockton play right from the begining and he is better than DWill however DWill has a lot left and could prove to be considered one of the greatest PG's of his era . I just don't see him ever having the label as greastest PG ever. Stockton is the best PG ever. Magic Johnson has even said it himself that John was the best pure PG ever. Magic no doubt was a better player who played the position but pure PG ever...Stockton for now.
Also I watched Thomas and he was a great player no doubt but no way is he a better PG than Stockton, who ever says this simply has never watched the 2 actually play. Rings does'nt mean he was better he obvioulsy had a better supporting cast. It's like another poster said earlier by the logic of more rings you must think Derek Fisher is a better PG than Stockton. Wrong Answer! In 10 years from now who knows where DWill will rank I hope it's near the top because that bodes well for the Jazz future. BTW I still think Paul is a better PG than DWill JMO

 

[gomretat]

Stock is my favorite player of all time and likely always will be. Never liked Magic and never will. But can we stop the madness of using a completely undefinable term like "pure" point guard. For his career, Magic averaged over 11 assists per game. That sounds pretty "pure" to me. Stock is not the best PG of all time. Magic was better. So was Oscar. Cousy and Nash have to been included in the debate as well. Arguing that John was the best of all time simply demonstrates kool-aid drinking. Top 5, absolutely. Best - nope.

 

[Jazzman]

/////

 

[carolinajazz]

Stock is my favorite player of all time and likely always will be. Never liked Magic and never will. But can we stop the madness of using a completely undefinable term like "pure" point guard. For his career, Magic averaged over 11 assists per game. That sounds pretty "pure" to me. Stock is not the best PG of all time. Magic was better. So was Oscar. Cousy and Nash have to been included in the debate as well. Arguing that John was the best of all time simply demonstrates kool-aid drinking. Top 5, absolutely. Best - nope.

....so with Stockton 5,000 assists better than Magic....and 3,000 steals better than him, too....he's not the better "pure" point guard? We beg to differ! Magic was the better scorer and rebounder...but those are not "pure" point guard stats!