***jazzfanz official us mass shootings thread***

[Scat]

We need to address why, in the past 20 years or so, has the idea of taking a gun to a public area and shooting as many people as possible become so "fashionable". There have always been mental health issues. There have always been guns. It's not like these two things just came into being the past couple of decades. What has come into being is the the idea that killing as many people as possible and then offing yourself is a great solution for whatever ails you. Everyone wants to legislate the hell out of guns and gun rights in an attempt to fix the problem but as Vinyl said, that only hurts lawful, sane gun owners.

 

[♪alt13]

We need to address why, in the past 20 years or so, has the idea of taking a gun to a public area and shooting as many people as possible become so "fashionable". There have always been mental health issues. There have always been guns. It's not like these two things just came into being the past couple of decades. What has come into being is the the idea that killing as many people as possible and then offing yourself is a great solution for whatever ails you. Everyone wants to legislate the hell out of guns and gun rights in an attempt to fix the problem but as Vinyl said, that only hurts lawful, sane gun owners.

Parents
This is what happens when you tell your child he can be an astronaut without affording him the math skills to become a bank teller. This is what happens when the world does not realize just how special he is. There is a reason that the profile for this is mostly young white men. Too many suburban parents instill in their children a pride in themselves that is easily shattered.(though not alone in this suburbanites seem to make an art of it)

A happy life is a good life
Forget a moral life, dismiss a charitable one, never mind studious pursuits and hard fought achievements. Our pursuit of happiness has been shortened to happiness. The frustration and setbacks that are implied by the word pursuit have become a validation of one's personal failure. We must avoid anything that does not inspire joy in ourselves and if we are still not happy it is because we are imbalanced. We expect easy success to go with our fast food and "off the shelf" gratification.

Economic Social Strata
This young narcissistic "future pack leader" is introduced to a society that is materialistic, a society that equates a persons value with the value in their pocketbook. A society that is certain that any white man with a heartbeat can achieve his dreams with a wink and a smile. The people in the apartments are barely more than scum and often avoided by those with homes. So afraid of mingling with the lesser classes those in McMansions increasingly gate themselves off from the rather nice neighborhoods that surround them.

The Break
Having an emotional tool box devoid of anything useful and never having learned the lesson of accountability our tragic little bundle of joy can arrive at only one conclusion... The World is ****ed, it shouldn't be this way, and it's not worth living in.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I think the media needs to stop offering so much coverage on the murderer after every massive killing-spree. Give proper attention to those who were killed, mention whether the killer was found or not-- and leave it at that.


Instead, we are left with a situation were the killers are given an extreme amount of attention. It has been oft-reported that one of the main driving forces behind many mass-murderers committing their atrocities, is because of their insatiable desire to be in the centre of the spot-light.


Giving the killers no attention (not even mentioning a name IMO) is a step in the right direction, I think.


This article is responsible for initially offering this insight to myself from a very right-wing Canadian news outlet, FWIW):

Wednesday, three RCMP officers were senselessly murdered and two left in critical condition following a shooting in Moncton, New Brunswick.

As the killer is now in custody, the community has turned to mourning the loss of the officers and the families that have been torn apart.

The media, including Sun News Network, has covered this story closely. And now we have made a decision: Sun News Network will not report the name of the killer. We will not show his photo.

When it comes to mass murderers, too often, it is attention and infamy they crave. Luckily, shootings of this nature are rare in Canada.

And in the US, they account for less than one per cent of all gun-related deaths. Far more people have been killed in the bad neighbourhoods of Chicago than were killed in all the mass shootings combined. But these rare incidents are never forgotten. And with the rise of social media, they've become a spectacle.

It's easy to report on the life of the killer, to scour his deranged Facebook page, to speculate about motive, but doing so could actually encourage the perception that his heinous acts are somehow justified.


Following the deadly Newtown, Connecticut shooting in December 2012 that left 26 dead, including 20 children, it was discovered that the perpetrator kept a "score sheet" of previous mass shootings.

Did he hope his name would be placed at the top of the list?

This bizarre act is not uncommon. In fact, experts have found a clear path of influence running through some of the most infamous shooters - from Columbine, to Virginia Tech to the, Colorado Theatre - including explicit reference to previous killing sprees and calls to empower future "celebrities".

Can you see the pattern? The idea is that mass shootings are contagious. Back in 1999, four public health researchers published a famous study titled "Media and Mass Homicides" in the Archives of Suicide Research.

They looked at a number of mass murders in Australia, New Zealand, and Britain and they discovered mass homicides occurred in clusters - not randomly.

Now, with wall-to-wall media coverage of these events, are we feeding future monsters? Are we putting ideas in their heads? When we make the killer's name and face famous, are we setting the stage for future mass killings?

In the media, it's a dilemma. We feel an obligation to tell the public what is going on. Our job is to inform. And like the old saying goes, "if it bleeds, it leads."

Networks care about ratings. But with every mass shooting, we face the inevitable cry of ANOTHER mass shooting?!?

In the days and weeks to come, there'll no doubt be a great deal of debate on how we stop the "next Moncton."

Mental illness, gun control, warning signs, will all come up. These are legitimate points of discussion. But for us in the press - and for society at large - let's take an honest look in the mirror to see if our hyper-interest might be contributing to this very disturbing phenomenon.

We will not help give this killer his blaze of glory.

 

[♪alt13]

I think the media needs to stop offering so much coverage on the murderer after every massive killing-spree. Give proper attention to those who were killed, mention whether the killer was found or not-- and leave it at that.


Instead, we are left with a situation were the killers are given an extreme amount of attention. It has been oft-reported that one of the main driving forces behind many mass-murderers committing their atrocities, is because of their insatiable desire to be in the centre of the spot-light.


Giving the killers no attention (not even mentioning a name IMO) is a step in the right direction, I think.


This article is responsible for initially offering this insight to myself from a very right-wing Canadian news outlet, FWIW):

I think this is a good step and it helps. Certainly some of the motivation for this is infamy but how often do we see someone jump off the empire state building with a 1000 ******(plastic hot dogs) in tow. I imagine there are a million different ways to become infamous but someone only chooses this route if they have a serious desire to commit the act in the first place.

 

[VINYLONE]

I see where you are going, but as someone who has been through the diagnosis process for what amounts to PTSD and clinical depression I can tell you there is no definitive blood test for brain chemicals as is there is for iron. Not even close or anything that provides any useful information as to the balance of those chemicals. Also the general "balance" of brain chemicals can be different person to person and different amounts can have drastically different effects person to person. If 2 people are low on iron they will generally show exactly the same symptoms, the same results will show up on a standard blood test and adding iron will generally have exactly the same effect. Absolutely not true of psychotropics.

If it were that simple then this would never have been a part of the discussion to begin with.

edit:

I am not saying that doesn't mean people shouldn't get help, because they absolutely should. This is, imo, one of the biggest travesties of our modern society which is the tendency to look down on and stigmatise these very real and serious issues. I am just pointing out that mental health is nowhere near that cut and dried and going through the trial-and-error method to find a drug that works can and does push people further into the problem. A problem that can result in increase suicidal or homicidal tendencies in people that you otherwise may reasonably not expect such behavior from.

Logger, you're completely on point with your assessment of the nature of prescribing and and how varying it can be from human to human. There is no one size fits all solution in the psychiatric world. This much is sure.

I will also wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to the stigma attached to mental health, the issues associated with it and the help one looks to get. Military careers are ended with this stigma.

Personally, I think things are getting better and better in respect to talking about mental health. I don't have a reference for any sort of mental issues, though I do have some phobias, but I have many friends and family, as we all do, who have or have had issues. I never take the conversations I've had with these folks lightly, especially when they're confiding in me. I try to make it as easy and as uncomfortable as I can. It's what I think we should all do...kind of do our part type thing.

Anyway, this is sort of related, but one of the reasons I really like Lady Gaga is because of her direct work with helping kids get the mental health help they need. I think at all of her concerts she has counselors and mental health experts set up so kids can talk to them for free. It's ****ing great.

https://www.thenationalcouncil.org/press-releases/lady-gagas-born-brave-bus-tour-back-on-the-road/

I'm sorry. Let me state it out more specifically:

There's a much better than 50/50 chance that the medication you're given will not cause you to lose control and shoot up a school.

Every medicine I've tried (admittedly, I'm not on my 7th) I've felt different. Only once with one medication did I feel any truly disturbing side effects(enhanced aggression). The rest all had a positive effect on me, and although not all were "the perfect drug for me", did not make my life worse.

Absolutely. I would say your closer to 95% that you will not suffer any sort of violent response. That said, these drug manufacturers know that about 1% of the folks taking these drugs will have some sort of reaction and an even smaller percentage will act out. I think this falls in line with the percentages of the folks involved in these mass shootings and the population we have here in the US.

And with every medication you're typically started on the lowest possible dose. Your doctor advises you of these risks, judges the risk/reward and finds that the risk is worth it. They also advise you to seek help immediately if these behaviors manifest themselves.

I think for most folks who need some sort of chemical rebalancing, this is the right way. That said, I think many folks turn to the easy fix without first changing their diet and/ or exercise regiment. We are a nation of fatties who eat like **** and rarely exercise. I'm sure the variety of folks on this board of the rotund variety and if pressed have all sort of excuses as to why it's so hard to include 1/2 an hour of exercise a day in their life. I think many people would be blown away by the effects exercise can have on the mind and body.

We need to address why, in the past 20 years or so, has the idea of taking a gun to a public area and shooting as many people as possible become so "fashionable". There have always been mental health issues. There have always been guns. It's not like these two things just came into being the past couple of decades. What has come into being is the the idea that killing as many people as possible and then offing yourself is a great solution for whatever ails you. Everyone wants to legislate the hell out of guns and gun rights in an attempt to fix the problem but as Vinyl said, that only hurts lawful, sane gun owners.

There have always been mass killings, even before the internet but as the internet arrived, many social constructs changed and I think relationships changed. We are now able to fake our lives in a much more evasive manner and many folks are affected by this.

I think someone posted this a few weeks back but it is rather relevant to this discussion:

[video=youtube_share;Z7dLU6fk9QY]https://youtu.be/Z7dLU6fk9QY

Parents
This is what happens when you tell your child he can be an astronaut without affording him the math skills to become a bank teller. This is what happens when the world does not realize just how special he is. There is a reason that the profile for this is mostly young white men. Too many suburban parents instill in their children a pride in themselves that is easily shattered.(though not alone in this suburbanites seem to make an art of it)

A happy life is a good life
Forget a moral life, dismiss a charitable one, never mind studious pursuits and hard fought achievements. Our pursuit of happiness has been shortened to happiness. The frustration and setbacks that are implied by the word pursuit have become a validation of one's personal failure. We must avoid anything that does not inspire joy in ourselves and if we are still not happy it is because we are imbalanced. We expect easy success to go with our fast food and "off the shelf" gratification.

Economic Social Strata
This young narcissistic "future pack leader" is introduced to a society that is materialistic, a society that equates a persons value with the value in their pocketbook. A society that is certain that any white man with a heartbeat can achieve his dreams with a wink and a smile. The people in the apartments are barely more than scum and often avoided by those with homes. So afraid of mingling with the lesser classes those in McMansions increasingly gate themselves off from the rather nice neighborhoods that surround them.

The Break
Having an emotional tool box devoid of anything useful and never having learned the lesson of accountability our tragic little bundle of joy can arrive at only one conclusion... The World is ****ed, it shouldn't be this way, and it's not worth living in.

This probably won't be a popular opinion but I truly believe the psyche of the American white male is the most fragile.

I think the media needs to stop offering so much coverage on the murderer after every massive killing-spree. Give proper attention to those who were killed, mention whether the killer was found or not-- and leave it at that.


Instead, we are left with a situation were the killers are given an extreme amount of attention. It has been oft-reported that one of the main driving forces behind many mass-murderers committing their atrocities, is because of their insatiable desire to be in the centre of the spot-light.


Giving the killers no attention (not even mentioning a name IMO) is a step in the right direction, I think.


This article is responsible for initially offering this insight to myself from a very right-wing Canadian news outlet, FWIW):

I don't think I would mind some sort of legislated gag order on these types of cases for the national media. I think they do things like this in other countries...Euro ones.

 

[One Brow]

We need to address why, in the past 20 years or so, has the idea of taking a gun to a public area and shooting as many people as possible become so "fashionable".

The 24-hour news cycle. There have always been killings and murder-suicides, but only recently have we had the ability and time to loudly broadcast every one.

 

[One Brow]

Parents
This is what happens when you tell your child he can be an astronaut without affording him the math skills to become a bank teller.

This is the sort of thing our great-grandparents said when complaining about how spoiled our grandparents were.

 

[One Brow]

This probably won't be a popular opinion but I truly believe the psyche of the American white male is the most fragile.

Those who have the most to lose feel the greatest need to maintain it.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

So, uh, let's say the authoritarians of the world got their wish and disarmed the US populace......however impossible that would ultimately be in reality. How do they address the fact that you can 3D print weapons now? If that technology gains any sort of ubiquity, the gun control crowd globally is in for a very rude awakening.

 

[Stoked]

So, uh, let's say the authoritarians of the world got their wish and disarmed the US populace......however impossible that would ultimately be in reality. How do they address the fact that you can 3D print weapons now? If that technology gains any sort of ubiquity, the gun control crowd globally is in for a very rude awakening.

My guess is the same way they would enforce the prevention of acquiring/possesing black market guns. Surveillance that leads to forced searches and confiscations.

 

[Duck Rodgers]

My guess is the same way they would enforce the prevention of acquiring/possesing black market guns. Surveillance that leads to forced searches and confiscations.

If I'm at my house with a 3D printer on my desk and all I need is a file? It seems enforcement would be more akin to downloading software/music/movies. Maybe controlling ammo would be easier. I'm no gun expert so I don't know the workarounds to them shutting down bullet factories and whatnot would be.

 

[Stoked]

If I'm at my house with a 3D printer on my desk and all I need is a file? It seems enforcement would be more akin to downloading software/music/movies. Maybe controlling ammo would be easier. I'm no gun expert so I don't know the workarounds to them shutting down bullet factories and whatnot would be.

You can make your own bullets as well. So like anything, even if it is illegal you can get around it if you want it bad enough. Short of draconian enforcement (and even then...) it will never work.

 

[VINYLONE]

Defensive gun use here in LA...
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow...ner-shoots-kills-intruder-20140623-story.html

And a few in Utahr...
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=30060969&nid=968&s_cid=rec3

Here's another one in Utahr (2013) where the firearm is used as a deterrent and no force is used...
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=24585827&n...ntil-police-arrive&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-1

And another one in Utahr...
https://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56987605-78/monte-gonzales-invasion-robbery.html.csp

Everyday, law abiding citizens are protecting themselves and the lives of their loved ones.

 

[LogGrad98]

This is the sort of thing our great-grandparents said when complaining about how spoiled our grandparents were.

Pretty sure my great-grand-father wasn't too concerned about math skills on the farm, or pushing his kid to be an astronaut or president or whatever. The "anyone can be a fill-in-the-blank" thing is a relatively new social construct really. In my GGF's day it was more determined by social status, and accepted as such, and any who thought otherwise were bucking the trends.

 

[One Brow]

Pretty sure my great-grand-father wasn't too concerned about math skills on the farm, or pushing his kid to be an astronaut or president or whatever. The "anyone can be a fill-in-the-blank" thing is a relatively new social construct really. In my GGF's day it was more determined by social status, and accepted as such, and any who thought otherwise were bucking the trends.

Nostalgia was so much better in our ggf's day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Alger_myth

 

[LogGrad98]

So Horatio Algers fiction proves that parents in the 1800's were encouraging their kids in the dustbowl to try to grow up to be President? Fiction is your source? Ok, works for me. No matter how hard you try to prove that everything really stays the same, there are social constructs that change over time. Obviously in the 1800's no kid was encouraged to try to become and astronaut. Yes, every generation wants the next one to be better off than they were, but the definition of "better off" changes with the times. My parents are children of the depression, and they just wanted me to have a stable job. That was about it. They encouraged us to go to school, get an education, so we could have stable jobs. The depression colored the expectations of that generation, and hence what they saw as "better off" for their kids.

 

[One Brow]

So Horatio Algers fiction proves that parents in the 1800's were encouraging their kids in the dustbowl to try to grow up to be President?

The Dustbowl was a 1930s phenomenon. I'm sure not all parents, but it was a big part of the American culture.

Fiction is your source?

No, the popularity of the fiction type.

Ok, works for me. No matter how hard you try to prove that everything really stays the same, there are social constructs that change over time. Obviously in the 1800's no kid was encouraged to try to become and astronaut. Yes, every generation wants the next one to be better off than they were, but the definition of "better off" changes with the times. My parents are children of the depression, and they just wanted me to have a stable job. That was about it. They encouraged us to go to school, get an education, so we could have stable jobs. The depression colored the expectations of that generation, and hence what they saw as "better off" for their kids.

Agreed.

 

[VINYLONE]

I don't agree with this article but I believe it's a sign that the tides are changing...

https://www.cnn.com/2014/06/24/opinion/robbins-mental-health/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

 

[VINYLONE]

21 people shot over the weekend in a state that has, arguably, the strictest gun laws in the nation...

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/06/29/violent-night-leaves-at-least-13-shot-in-all-five-boroughs/

 

[VINYLONE]

I came across an older article in Psychology Today regarding the use of SSRI's in treating patients with mental disorders and the violence that can ensue...

Newtown Shootings: A Caution About Violence and SSRIs
SSRIs rank high in the top ten drugs that cause violence
Published on December 20, 2012 by Lennard J. Davis in Obsessively Yours

As the debate moves forward about how to keep events like the shooting in Newtown from happening, the inevitable topic that comes up is how to best detect and treat young people with mental illness.

Many of our politicians have opined on this subject, sometimes as a way of deflecting from the issue of gun control. While it is obvious that better screening and treatment of troubled adolescents can be of enormous benefit, we also have to exercise caution.

The reason for the note of caution is that when a typical young person is diagnosed with depression and/or a host of anti-social conditions, the standard treatment offered is SSRI’s [Selective Serotonin Uptake Inhibitors] also known as Prozac-like drugs. There has recently been a great deal of debate about the effectiveness of such medications.

But more relevant to the discussion, is that these very drugs we hope can treat mental illness are at the same time drugs that cause violent behavior including suicide and aggression toward others. In fact, SSRI’s are the leading drugs in a recent list compiled of the Top Ten Drugs that cause violent behavior.

It’s been well known that adolescents and young people have an increased risk of suicide when they begin to take SSRIs. But what we may forget is that suicide is an impulsive behavior that is turned against oneself. But impulses, particularly violent ones, can be turned against others.

An accompanying effect of SSRI’s is the dulling of feelings that cause depression—and one of the main feelings in this line is empathy. If empathy is dulled and violent impulses increase when young people are on SSRI’s, then certainly that is a recipe for causing harm to others.

It’s not that SSRI’s are not an important part of a mental-health practitioner’s arsenal against mental illness—they are. But it is important to understand that they are not panaceas and may even contribute to more violence.

It is possible that the SSRI’s were not properly prescribed and therefore were not working. But we also have to entertain the idea that those drugs may have directly or indirectly contributed to the violence that resulted.

After all, drugs are drugs—with effects and side effects. We need to know more about how these drugs work before we decide that the best policy is to get as many trouble adolescents on them as possible. The physician’s motto: “Do no harm” is more relevant than ever in this scenario.

I also came across this peer reviewed study about the use of SSRIs. It's not long and it's an easy read.

https://www.breggin.com/31-49.pdf

As I've stated a numerous of of times, our issues here in the States with gun violence have less to do with guns and more to do with individuals being prescribed drugs that put them over the edge.

From the study:

There is a natural reluctance to attribute “bad behavior” or loss of ethical restraint (dyscontrol, loss
of impulse control) to a psychoactive substance. Western philosophy, religion, and tradition tend to hold
human beings responsible for their harmful behaviors and eschew “excusing” such behavior on the basis
of “mental illness.” Indeed, the concept of mental illness has been subject to challenge by this author and
many others. Nonetheless, the weight of considered evidence indicates that psychoactive substances can
play a role in causing suicide, violence, and other forms of disinhibited criminal conduct.