Jazzfanz: Racist, Sexist, Anti-gay remarks Ok. Swears and All Caps Not Ok.

[One Brow]

I'm basing my opinion off of scientific facts.

So, science > my personal opinion? There are many other ways of displaying sensitivity beside crying. For example, some people feel the need to diminish authors that threaten their opinions, like calling them unemployed losers living in their parents basements, or comparing them to a particularly disliked poster.

You're basing yours off of what you likely read in some feminist blog, written by Pearl Watson or someone of her ilk. The fact that you equate over-sensitivity to being a white, Christian, male says to me that you're happy to be profoundly wrong in this thread, because, well, you're you and you're never wrong regardless of facts

I don't think white, christian men are more inherently sensitive, necessarily, but you sure get a strong reaction out of them on topics like sexism, racism, or religious hegemony. when I post a link in a thread, I don't feel a need for a response or an argument on it, particularly not on how suspect the author is.

 

[One Brow]

I don't think discussing the pressures that society places on women is infantilizing them. Where did I say that?

The blanket statement that the far majority of women are infantilized is by nature, infantilizing them.

How is this not a contradiction?

 

[One Brow]

May be hormonal contributions?

Do we have any studies linking hormone levels to the specific act of crying?

Social conditioning trumps hormonal influence. Interesting implications there.

Social conditioning can trump fear (military training), joy (parental abuse), or anger (pacifistic training), but not crying?

Or is it just in certain cases like when you agree that's the case our have an argument to win?

Social conditioning is the main point of my arguments concerning racism, sexism, etc. for what arguments do you think I have abandoned it.

Is it possible that hormonal influence has shaped society in the first place so it's merely a reflection of our evolved nature? Maybe natural selection has evolved women who cry more easily and men that don't because that is a sign to our species of their respective fitness as mates and desirable traits in offspring.

I've heard the same type of argument to justify girls liking pink and boys liking blue, from people not aware that these preferences are less than 150 years old.

In any case, I'm not denying there is a hormonal contribution. I said "may be".

 

[One Brow]

I answered your straightforward question in a very direct and straightforward manner. I back my statement 100%

I had not realized you had misunderstood this so basically. Are you ever forced to believe from the evidence what you would prefer to not believe?

Then maybe you should speak less in absolutes as if you are the spokesman for all women.

I'm not qualified to be the spokesman for any woman. However, I can see for myself some of the pressures society places on women, even the ones who don't feel that pressure or agree with its objectives.

You ever have conversations with a person, or is it all just groups of people with you?

Is it possible to separate your upbringing from any conversation you have?

 

[One Brow]

Associated with both. However, in speech and written communication there is this concept called "context," and sometimes this idea tends to narrow things down or exclude one thing or the other.

There was no context in what I said that made it a sexist remark. ...

Though I'm sure some awful professor has written a 20 page dissertation telling me how wrong I am.

There was no such context that you could perceive. Thank you for mansplaining it to me.

It's good to know your mind is so open that any such professor must be awful.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

How is this not a contradiction?

Everyone, to differing degrees, feels the pressure of "society." That's not infantilization.

 

[moevillini]

Can someone please explain this infantilization process to me?


Is it sort of like a Supreme Court decision?

 

[LogGrad98]

Can someone please explain this infantilization process to me?


Is it sort of like a Supreme Court decision?

Moe you should be an expert. Apparently it's what all men do to all women all the time.

 

[moevillini]

Moe you should be an expert. Apparently it's what all men do to all women all the time.

well they must of done a real good job on me

 

[moevillini]

and yes, it was not a mute point, it was intentional

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I had not realized you are rejecting my blatant attempt to marginalize you. Are you rejecting my attempt at forcing you to believe from my weak attempts at evidence what you do not believe?

fixed

I'm not qualified to be the spokesman for any woman. However, I still like to do so.

noted

Is it possible to separate your upbringing from any conversation you have?

Yes, all the time. You know nothing about my upbringing btw,
How about you, you able to separate your "upbringing" from any conversation you have?

By the way, you carry the baggage of society with you in every conversation you have? If your daughter asks you a question do you ask yourself what society meant by the question they forced your daughter to ask you by their huge pressures... and by "society" I mean "white men"? Do you even think about what your daughter actually meant by the question or do you jump right into the implied question by society? Is it even possible for you to have a meaningful conversation between another person without the spectre of society looming over your head?

Just curio

 

[One Brow]

Everyone, to differing degrees, feels the pressure of "society." That's not infantilization.

I agree. That pressure exists is not infantilization, it's that the pressure on women includes infantilization.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWdLt3Afjrg

 

[Jazz Spazz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyv905Q2omU

 

[One Brow]

Can someone please explain this infantilization process to me?


Is it sort of like a Supreme Court decision?

If you think I'm really off base, I'm listening.

 

[One Brow]

fixed

I was asking you a simple, direct question about whether you ever come to any understandings or preferences, based on evidence, that you would prefer to not hold. Maybe you don't, and in your world everything you want to believe is actually true; you've talked often enough about how people only see what they want to see. Maybe you do. Pretending that I was asking about my views is intellectual cowardice.

noted

Here, you can't even be honest enough to acknowledged that you changed this quote as well, nor to think I could be outraged on my own gender's behalf for the behaviors of member of my own gender. Why do you think that's not possible?

Yes, all the time. You know nothing about my upbringing btw,

I'm more than 99.9% sure you are a human, raised by humans, around other human families. That's all I need for this particular point.

How about you, you able to separate your "upbringing" from any conversation you have?

By the way, you carry the baggage of society with you in every conversation you have? If your daughter asks you a question do you ask yourself what society meant by the question they forced your daughter to ask you by their huge pressures... and by "society" I mean "white men"? Do you even think about what your daughter actually meant by the question or do you jump right into the implied question by society? Is it even possible for you to have a meaningful conversation between another person without the spectre of society looming over your head?

Just curio

Of course I carry around all of the positives and negatives I learned from my language, parents, friends, teachers, various priests and nuns, etc., and they form part of every conversation I have. The notion that a human can have some sort of objective point of view, separate from everything they have experienced, is a fantasy. I don't even know how you could have a meaningful conversation without all sorts of background knowledge and assumptions being built in. How would one go? Can you offer an example?

As for my daughters, it depends on the daughter and the conversation. If they are asking what a condom is used for, they get a simple answer. If they are asking about how to talk to a boy, I'll include a little more of society's expectations, and how to circumvent some of them, should they so choose.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

I agree. That pressure exists is not infantilization, it's that the pressure on women includes infantilization.

I agree. That's not what you said though, but that's not even the point.

Listen, I have little objection to what was said in this thread but your blanket statement pages ago in post #70 (which is why I first posted here) is one of them and quite frankly, hilariously ironic coming from you, Judge, Jury and Executioner.

You can't have it both ways. You can't sit high upon your perch and call out all those who misspeak and make blanket statements about entire groups of people and then do the same. Much of what you've said here is true but it would be nice for OneBrow the Omniscient to admit he misspoke, did the same, and hasn't a clue about how the far majority of women in this world feel.

I'm not holding my breath, though.

 

[moevillini]

I agree. That pressure exists is not infantilization, it's that the pressure on women includes infantilization.

Can SOMEBODY please explain to me what exactly this is?

Or I WILL have a temper tantrum.
Just like a two-year old...

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I was asking you a simple, direct question about whether you ever come to any understandings or preferences, based on evidence, that you would prefer to not hold. Maybe you don't, and in your world everything you want to believe is actually true; you've talked often enough about how people only see what they want to see. Maybe you do. Pretending that I was asking about my views is intellectual cowardice.



Here, you can't even be honest enough to acknowledged that you changed this quote as well, nor to think I could be outraged on my own gender's behalf for the behaviors of member of my own gender. Why do you think that's not possible?



I'm more than 99.9% sure you are a human, raised by humans, around other human families. That's all I need for this particular point.



Of course I carry around all of the positives and negatives I learned from my language, parents, friends, teachers, various priests and nuns, etc., and they form part of every conversation I have. The notion that a human can have some sort of objective point of view, separate from everything they have experienced, is a fantasy. I don't even know how you could have a meaningful conversation without all sorts of background knowledge and assumptions being built in. How would one go? Can you offer an example?

As for my daughters, it depends on the daughter and the conversation. If they are asking what a condom is used for, they get a simple answer. If they are asking about how to talk to a boy, I'll include a little more of society's expectations, and how to circumvent some of them, should they so choose.

1- It was not a simple direct question, it was a pompous manipulative question with a clear "right" and "wrong" answer, which I why I responded in kind.

2 - I very obviously doctored your first and second quotes. If you can't see it it's probably because society wouldn't let you see it, but don't blame me, blame society.

3- There you go with your 99.9% intellectual dishonesty again. If my upbringing was the same as everyone else it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't have brought it up.

4- The difference seems to be that "society" is the main focus of who you are and seems to be the main focal point and most important factor in all you do or say. For me my experiences have a part of my life, but I choose what to take from those experiences and I am who I am because of what I choose to be. I don't blame "society" for who I am and I try actually listen to understand a person when I communicate with them instead of taking what they say, and understanding their words based on what "society" generally means by similar statements. If I'm talking to a person I would rather understand them and what they mean and not what 90 out of 110 people probably mean when they say something similar. I would rather have a conversation with a person than with the ghost of 100 people that try to interpret what that person is saying for me.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Can SOMEBODY please explain to me what exactly this is?

Or I WILL have a temper tantrum.
Just like a two-year old...

I'm very tempted to tell you to stop crying... just to rile OB.

I'll wait for OB to speak for all... but in the meantime here is the basics.

in•fan•til•ize (ˈɪn fən tlˌaɪz, -taɪˌlaɪz, ɪnˈfæn tlˌaɪz)

v.t. -ized, -iz•ing.
1. to keep in or reduce to an infantile state.
2. to treat or regard as infantile.

Nate told someone to stop crying.
OB escalated this to saying Nate is infantilizing women by telling a poster to stop crying.

Then all of this broke loose.

Do you need more? If so... paging OB.