JFC Cult DeProgramming Help Thread

[idestroyedthetoilet]

I dunno. Maybe we should invent some kind of writing system.

This is of course a conundrum for the ages. A lot of philosophers have dreamed of conserving wisdom from one generation to the next. Some are in fact indignantly offended that we fail to improve things consistently. Others naively assert that we're doing very well on this subject.

The underlying problem is we humans get to be born once, and die once. Sometimes folks wanna assist that dying step. And everyone insists on learning stuff the hard way..... first hand.

OK, then. Let's elect civil servants, oh, say every seven years. Anyone with any kind of rule-making or regulatory authority. Make it an election of qualified voters with some defined sort of stakeholder status. Maybe empanel an oversight committee, and just elect those folks, say every seven years.

You get to go out in public and discuss the role of your agency or office, and explain the problems you see and what you'd like to do about it.....

and swear to uphold the US Constitution in your official actions.....

We'd need a Constitutional Amendment to provide for this fourth branch of government......

But I'd vote for someone who cared to do the job, maybe for several stints in office.....

We already have this type of beaurocratic "4th branch" of government but without your voting, and many places have stakeholders on board (I hate that term as it has created misery in legislation becoming so complex that it's hard to decipher). Adjudication and other less formal resolution processes, but all are subject to court or appeal in a formal judicial court.

A closer justice system example, we recently had to attend trial with witnesses for my kid missing too much school. By witnesses, not by jury. Charges were signed off by a school beaurocrat and sent to the state. That case could have gone to appellate court had it needed to. Luckily, the prosecution hadn't read the code well enough so I put an "oh ****" look on his face when I started stating the rule and they basically dropped the charges instead of the usual plea in abeyance. Being used to reading laws has its advantages.

Anyway, if you wanted to code up a bunch of SOP's and training manuals for my job and vote the old bums out every seven years then you'd have 6 years of on-the-job training before preparing to start from scratch again. Thats simply not feasible and without experience people tend to forget a whole lot of what they learn from reading alone.

 

[babe]

Well, this brings out the limits on people's hopes which nature hobbles us all with.

no way will we ever devise any way to do the right thing systematically. We just aren't that smart, collectively or individually.

So complex operations like guvmints will never get anywhere's near that good. Maybe we should just figure we're kinda lucky if there's the odd effective administrator or good public servant. Or reduce stuff down to local levels where one big arse can't poop on the whole country. Then the Bigs of commerce would just hafta hire lots of local influencers where ever they needed some favors, and the yocal folks'd be outgunned at every corral. Like keeping wild horses out on the range is better than roundin'em all up in one swamp, the poop piles can be skirted and we still get over the mountain somehow. Better than being mired neck-deep in foggy bottom.

I can see the pic where there's the old warrior bureaucrat trying his best to train out a young'un to fill his shoes, and it probably can't be done, really. But hey, it's a good thing some care at all. I bet things like that happen more at the state and country levels than in the Fed system.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Well, then you get into the case of states or localities not funding things that are logical. States rights and local vs. Federal is an age old balancing act. I can complain all day long about areas where federal regulation makes no sense for Utah and others, but it's blanketed over everywhere. On the other hand, if the Feds stepped out Utah would poison things on the back of voter's whims.

Fight all the men, not just the man.

 

[babe]

We already have this type of beaurocratic "4th branch" of government but without your voting, and many places have stakeholders on board (I hate that term as it has created misery in legislation becoming so complex that it's hard to decipher). Adjudication and other less formal resolution processes, but all are subject to court or appeal in a formal judicial court.

A closer justice system example, we recently had to attend trial with witnesses for my kid missing too much school. By witnesses, not by jury. Charges were signed off by a school beaurocrat and sent to the state. That case could have gone to appellate court had it needed to. Luckily, the prosecution hadn't read the code well enough so I put an "oh ****" look on his face when I started stating the rule and they basically dropped the charges instead of the usual plea in abeyance. Being used to reading laws has its advantages.

Anyway, if you wanted to code up a bunch of SOP's and training manuals for my job and vote the old bums out every seven years then you'd have 6 years of on-the-job training before preparing to start from scratch again. Thats simply not feasible and without experience people tend to forget a whole lot of what they learn from reading alone.

I see you are fairly specific in your pic of what happens without thorough professional experienced administration. But what would happen if some trumpster just shut down your agency? would the soup boil over the pot and stain the stove and floor, and get all smelly? Are you describing an actual societal necessity?

would county guvmints decide to take care of their own neck of the woods if you weren't there to do it for them?

how many stinkin' industrial sites can we hide out in the west desert where nobody can see them, and just leave'em be, before we start smellin' the crap on the front?

 

[babe]

Well, then you get into the case of states or localities not funding things that are logical. States rights and local vs. Federal is an age old balancing act. I can complain all day long about areas where federal regulation makes no sense for Utah and others, but it's blanketed over everywhere. On the other hand, if the Feds stepped out Utah would poison things on the back of voter's whims.

Fight all the men, not just the man.

well you do make a good case for seasoned officials empowered to do the jobs most folks really wouldn't know how to do, which most voters will never be involved enough with to get things right.

I bet almost every person/company you deal with would prove irresponsible without your oversight??? Maybe not. Maybe some would care as much as you. Not a chance we should take? Having a living space that's healthy is pretty much a human right, and having someone on the job who knows enough to achieve that is probably worth whatever the price it costs.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

I bet almost every person/company you deal with would prove irresponsible without your oversight??? Maybe not. Maybe some would care as much as you. Not a chance we should take?

It's not my job to care. I consider that an ethics violation. Someone could spout every curse at me imaginable and it wouldn't have an affect.

But nope, it's not the 1950's 60's, 70's or 80's anymore. IMO knowing you have someone looking over your shoulder is very important just for the sake of presence, but most I deal with do more self-policing on their own than I ever could. That's a good byproduct of oversight over decades of work that came before my time. Business for the most part has shaken hands with government, and that's a good thing.

I also pride myself on protecting a competitive marketplace. Without oversight there are companies that take advantage and can undercut. Oversight levels the playing field and ensures fair competition and influences markets to compete.

But there are the consistent problem childs like your previous employer out west. They are few and far between. Basically, if everyone obeys the law then everyone can pass on the costs imposed by the voting base.

 

[babe]

how do you do it.

you just go on and on being intelligent and reasonable, and I know there isn't anyone who can really do that on the long term.

People like you are better than democracy, better than tenured college profs, better than any political agenda.

government and good sense are typically oxymoronic. not always I see.

well, there's a cowboy who's been doing the job for me for twenty three years who's running for county commission. More common sense than a hundred cows, for sure. And that's saying a lot. Oh, I see an unreasonable cow every now and then, standing over a newborn calf and giving me the eye for good reason. But generally, cows are more reasonable than humans. They might sit in the sun on huge piles of manure, but it doesn't infect their brains. us, yes. And our bs stinks more.

OK, then, as a practical matter it can help to have guvmint. Almost as good as the fear of God in practical terms, and a lot more immediate.

But in the abstract, philosophers still haven't found a convincing example of "good" or "true" or "right", and imo the very essence of humanity centers on the irrational genius that causes us to be unreasonable at times. Some might term it tribal superstitions or ignorant fears. But that's what keeps the logical traps from closing irreversibly. In the long run that is what freedom is.

Reason is the highest form of tyranny.

But I want my dirt kept clean, bro.

 

[babe]

btw.

my many forays into California.... I think I've traveled the state than 70% of the lifers there.

I could not bear to imagine what the place would be without environmental regulations being up front center in every project.

 

[babe]

Among those wired to fight for causes, anyhow.

well, you used to be quite fun to lock horns with. I could never outlast you, and I could never stick to the subject. But even if you can, and do, stoically pursue some of the great causes a lot of progressives favor, you do it with a kind of intellect that raises you above the cult mentality. You simply discuss the ideas. I can hardly think of one example where you ever were reduced to a personal attack because you ran out of ideas or responses. Culties can hardly ever pursue any idea and discuss it at length with any kind of equanimity or fairness. If their nemesis doesn't just cave and say "You're Right" within two or three times of being told "You're Wrong", it's clearly necessary to impose the Personal Attack and force compliance on the straying unbeliever.

So I would give it to you. You're not wired to fight for causes. You are interested in the ideas, for their own value.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

how do you do it.

you just go on and on being intelligent and reasonable, and I know there isn't anyone who can really do that on the long term.

It's not hard, and you would be a perfect candidate for my job because of how people here are hired.

I'm like a cop with no badge or gun and a lawyer without a degree. We have the same type of discression police do. I take the police officer mentality of measuring up people to see if they are on the up and up. After I judge that all is good I tend to build trust and have friendly relationships. At many places I even feel obligated to invent ways to perform my duty because I have to prove I did something, right? Which I usually joke about as a dog and pony show at several places.

I work with several people eligible for retirement and they take the same attitude. It's Utah, we aren't searching to invent problems. They've maintained the attitude for 25-35+ years. Is that long term enough?

 

[One Brow]

well, you used to be quite fun to lock horns with. I could never outlast you, and I could never stick to the subject. But even if you can, and do, stoically pursue some of the great causes a lot of progressives favor, you do it with a kind of intellect that raises you above the cult mentality. You simply discuss the ideas. I can hardly think of one example where you ever were reduced to a personal attack because you ran out of ideas or responses. Culties can hardly ever pursue any idea and discuss it at length with any kind of equanimity or fairness. If their nemesis doesn't just cave and say "You're Right" within two or three times of being told "You're Wrong", it's clearly necessary to impose the Personal Attack and force compliance on the straying unbeliever.

So I would give it to you. You're not wired to fight for causes. You are interested in the ideas, for their own value.

Thank you for your kind words.