John McCain Has Brain Cancer
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DutchJazzer
Banned
I hope john mccain goes to VA!
after all he thinks it is good enough for all soldiers who did not go into politics
after all he thinks it is good enough for all soldiers who did not go into politics
DutchJazzer
Banned
so are you saying we should be forced into things?
their is a word for that it is called FASCISM!
so you are ok with forcing people!
you sir are a fascist
Yes people should be forced into things. It's where you draw the line that is what's debatable. Unless you think anyone should be able to do anything without forced consequences. Should we be able to force convicted murderers into prison? You really need to step up your logic... I know it's a rough time for you though so I'll this one slide.
Also it's not forced to get insurance. I have yet to have health insurance since Obamacare began. No one has forced me into it. So clearly you don't know what you are talking about again.
We should not be financially penalized for not having insurance. I am all for making it cheaper and getting coverage to those that need/want it. I have no problem with that.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
The Koch bros have funneled millions into anti-obamacare propaganda and candidates.
This was just one of the examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KHjg6mtewI
Many Republican candidates have joined with this ad to slander Obamacare and many Republican voters actually believe in these lies.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
It's important that everyone pay into the system for two reasons:
Legally, ERs cannot refuse you. So while you may not like paying for insurance, I guarantee you that you'll come crying to the ER demanding that they provide you for service as soon as you have an emergency. You might think that you have enough cash in the bank to pay for any HC emergency. However, the facts don't support this view. The #1 cause for bankruptcy in this nation are health care costs. Chemo alone costs over $200,000 dollars.
Furthermore, without everyone slapping some skin into the system, particularly, for insurance, the pools to cover sick/old people dry up. You see, the best way to keep premiums down is to encourage far more healthy people to contribute into the system than unhealthy. That's sort of how insurance works. If people could just "opt out" of paying for insurance then those who need health care the most will see skyrocketing premiums and the system will eventually crash.
If we want to maintain healthy insurance rates, then we need to enforce these two solutions:
A) Everyone pay into the system.
B) Government regulation of prices.
What we have with Obamacare is an individual mandate but very little government regulation of the prices. So you the consumer pay higher premiums for states that have refused to expand Medicaid and for greedy hospitals and pharmaceuticals that price gouge patients.
In France, Germany, and Japan, they have non-profit insurance companies that are regulated by the government. The government either sets the price or strongly regulates them. Everyone pays into the system. For profit supplemental insurance is available as well. But everyone must contribute to the baseline insurance.
That's the system I think would work best for America.
You still maintain some semblance of the insurance system but keep prices under control.
France, Germany, and Japan all spend far less of their GDP on healthcare than we do. They spend between 10-13 percent of their GDP on healthcare while we're up around 18 percent.
Sad
There are many things I have about or health Care. It sucks right now and has many problems. This is not one of them. I have not had insurance and I have not been penalized for not having it. It only applies to a very small group of people.
I have non-marketplace, non medicaid, employer provided insurance. It's $25 a co-pay, pending service facility. And that's from a healthcare company.
So if you're getting $2, genuinely, I'd like to see the exact plan. That's an absurdly low co-pay for public, or private.
If we're going to use an Insurance system, everyone's gotta have it.
How you take that statement will say much about you.
It means two things. providing the chance for millions that can't get coverage, or adequate coverage, the chance to get it. That's a great thing. It also means forcing the hand of those that do not want it.
I just don't agree with that part. The ideas do not have to be mutually exclusive. We can give that chance to those that needed while allowing those that want out to leave.
Question: Does the ACA allow "outs"? For example investing in an HSA instead of a set insurance plan?
[MENTION=181]Ron Mexico[/MENTION], you are not penalized for no insurance? How does that work? The more you know...
I know you don't. But when someone without insurance doesn't pay, everyone else pays for them in further increased hospital prices. It actually took me a while to come to it as well, and it was more easily accepted by the fact that I had insurance when I heard this was going to be a thing. It somehow made it easier to take while my mind had to work out how and why it was that important.
People complain about paying taxes. The difference here, is it's preventable. Taxes never will be.
That's why we need a system that doesn't involve insurance companies. They are the biggest problem in our health care. Insurance companies profits could pay for everyone's health care.
There are lots of outs to the no insurance penalty. I submit on my taxes that my work doesn't provide me with health insurance, that I don't qualify for any Obamacare discount plans and that I can't afford the insurance options in my area. That is my combo to be exempt but there are others.
I would probably be more on board with it if it provided alternative options like HSAs.
But mostly at this point I just wonder how long it is before we move to single payer and it's provided to everyone.
[MENTION=181]Ron Mexico[/MENTION] thanks. So there are exceptions. Good to know. That softens my opposition tbh.
The opposing arguments are generally:
1. The government can't do it, they can't do anything right
2. That's COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!!!1
3. DEATH PANELS ZOMG
4. It's a states rights issue(Almost always the last card played in every conservative argument)
So good luck with that.
But the bargaining power of everyone in the country(as opposed to smaller sub-groups with smaller insurance companies), low overhead that other countries see(there is an argument that we're different overall, there is NOT one that contradicts overhead alone, at all), and general societal benefits to expanding preventative care are well worth crunching the numbers.
Other countries put their best and brightest on this detail and made it work. If we're the best and the brightest overall, shouldn't be able to find a way that works for us? Private insurance only works for their CEO's.
Jonah
Well-Known Member
We’re most likely still a generation away from single payer. A more politically possible intermediate step is to lower Medicare eligibility to age fifty-five. Easing this group of older folks onto medicare makes for a much healthier risk pool for those who would still get their insurance through Obamacare or whatever it's next iteration might be called.
It's called Obamacare. Ain't you know nuthin? Go use the dam calculator for petes sake.
HSA's dry up. Across America, for Sepsis or Sepsis related stays alone(only sepsis, no co-morbidities[diabetes, hypotension, trauma related injuries, etc], the cost is $55,616,438 every day.
That's not a BS number, it's well publicized. It's also based on data from 2011, which means the number is much higher now. In Ohio, if a patient with sepsis/severe sepsis comes in, the price per day can vary wildly. No ventilator for the first 96 hours? $11,794 a day. Hit the ICU and get put on a vent? $40,878 a day.
Do you have the money to keep $40k in an HSA? Let alone that much for each day you're on that ventilator?