What's new
By:

John Stockton’s dirty little secret

Thee jazz fan said:
Stop trying to save face. Your on record saying he wasn’t REALLY great and couldn’t ELEVATE a team. Your dead to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Thee jazz fan said:
Stop trying to save face. Your on record saying he wasn’t REALLY great and couldn’t ELEVATE a team. Your dead to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Yes, I am on record saying he isn't perfect and isn't my #1 PG.

You are also on record saying Oscar is a better player and " Oscar Robertson would be a huge matchup issue for Stockton."

The thing you got upset about before was that I said the jazz choked in the playoffs during Stockton's prime and when they went to the finals he was declining and Malone carried a bigger load at that point.

But you also got really angry when I said Mitchell was a better rookie than Stockton was as a rookie. There's really no debate about that.

But, I am glad this all makes you so angry and I'm dead to you, that warms my heart.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
That’s where you and I are different. Even at the age of ten I ate, slept, and bleed jazz basketball. In those days they played on the local channel KJazz, and only about half the games were televised, so when they weren’t what was a diehard fan to do but listen to the game on the radio. While I listened to Hot Rod sing his sweet jazz poetry my brain formed the images as to what happened from listening to Hot’s call. I was every bit the fan then as I am now. I remember!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Some of my very best memories of my early years as a Jazz fan were of Hot Rod on the radio, he called games like no one does today. He built it in a way that you could visualize exactly what was happening. I always liked Boone a lot too. I know he was more awkward on the mic, but the depth of his knowledge of the game was undeniable. Those 2 were as perfect a commentary team as you will really ever get in sports. I miss that so much. I would give anything to hear those 2 call this next season, with Donovan coming into his own and this rag-tag team making a deep run into the playoffs.

Rest in peace Hot Rod. We loved you buddy.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Yes, I am on record saying he isn't perfect and isn't my #1 PG.

You are also on record saying Oscar is a better player and " Oscar Robertson would be a huge matchup issue for Stockton."

The thing you got upset about before was that I said the jazz choked in the playoffs during Stockton's prime and when they went to the finals he was declining and Malone carried a bigger load at that point.

But you also got really angry when I said Mitchell was a better rookie than Stockton was as a rookie. There's really no debate about that.

But, I am glad this all makes you so angry and I'm dead to you, that warms my heart.
Click to expand...
Eh, Stockton played behind an all-star and didn't really get going until his 3rd season or so for this reason. Different circumstances breed different results. There is no way to say how Stock would have performed had he been pushed into the limelight as Mitchell was. As it was Stockton averaged something like 14 ppg and 10 apg per 36 his rookie year, even coming off the bench behind Green.
 
LogGrad98 said:
There is no proven corollary between shooting more and shooting worse. That is just conjecture. It could be argued that in today's NBA he would have shot even better percentages since the game plan is built around open 3's, and in his day he shot a lot of his 3's likely late in the shot clock, under pressure, as it was viewed mostly as a secondary to a broken primary play.
Click to expand...
That's a good point, I don't necessarily disagree that it's possible but that's all just hypothetical. The fact is he didn't, so in comparing numbers I'm not going to just add more points on or assume he could score more without sacrificing efficieny or other stats like assists.

But there are reasons CP3 put up better numbers in his peak year in my opinion such as rule changes and game changes hence why I think despite not putting up as good of numbers Stockton was a better player.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Yes, I am on record saying he isn't perfect and isn't my #1 PG.

You are also on record saying Oscar is a better player and " Oscar Robertson would be a huge matchup issue for Stockton."

The thing you got upset about before was that I said the jazz choked in the playoffs during Stockton's prime and when they went to the finals he was declining and Malone carried a bigger load at that point.

But you also got really angry when I said Mitchell was a better rookie than Stockton was as a rookie. There's really no debate about that.

But, I am glad this all makes you so angry and I'm dead to you, that warms my heart.
Click to expand...

Oscar is an all time great. I never said Stockton was an overall better player, but he is better at pg then Oscar. Any idiot can see Oscar would present matchup issues for the diminutive 6-1 185lb John Stockton, Oscars whole game was built around bullying smaller pg’s. All he did was back people down and shoot over the top. Stockton can’t defend against that. I have no problem saying Magic is a better all around player, but he’s not a better pg then Stockton. No one ever played the position better with more perfection then Stockton did. Stockton is the best to ever play the position period, and not sure how that can be even debated.

I do think Stockton is a top 10-15 player all time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
LogGrad98 said:
Eh, Stockton played behind an all-star and didn't really get going until his 3rd season or so for this reason. Different circumstances breed different results. There is no way to say how Stock would have performed had he been pushed into the limelight as Mitchell was. As it was Stockton averaged something like 14 ppg and 10 apg per 36 his rookie year, even coming off the bench behind Green.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but Mitchell was a much better rookie. He has done more with his career so far. Plus Stockton was a 4 year college player to Mitchell 2 years.

Will Mitchell continue to surpass him for their careers? I have no idea but I hope so. I doubt he has any where near the longevity but I really hope his peak is higher for awhile because that means he is a HOF player.

I'm not sure why people think that type of statement is trashing Stockton.
 
Ron Mexico said:
That's how you take it.

I never bashed on Stockton or was critical of him in this thread.

But yes, I do disagree with people that make ludicrous claims about Stockton or other players. And yes, when people debate me about their silly claims that are false I defend myself.

Maybe it's just too sensitive a subject for you and thee.
Click to expand...

Too sensitive of a subject for me lol. What is it that tells you that? I’m not the one going on and on page after page about this.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
Oscar is an all time great. I never said Stockton was an overall better player, but he is better at pg then Oscar. Any idiot can see Oscar would present matchup issues for the diminutive 6-1 185lb John Stockton, Oscars whole game was built around bullying smaller pg’s. All he did was back people down and shoot over the top. Stockton can’t defend against that. I have no problem saying Magic is a better all around player, but he’s not a better pg then Stockton. No one ever played the position better with more perfection then Stockton did. Stockton is the best to ever play the position period, and not sure how that can be even debated.

I do think Stockton is a top 10-15 player all time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Those are just arbitrary distinctions for what playing PG is. Winning is playing the position correctly.

I definitely don't have Stockton top 10 all time NBA players. For me Malone is slightly better and probably top 20 maybe top 15. Stockton is a small step behind probably top 25 for me, maybe top 20.
 
fishonjazz said:
Too sensitive of a subject for me lol. What is it that tells you that? I’m not the one going on and on page after page about this.
Click to expand...
That you seem to be getting upset and bothered about a friendly discussion.

Yes, I'm going on for pages having a discussion about old jazz players on a jazz message board. That's kind of what this message board is for. It's the off season. I do respond to people who are engaging in a discussion.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Here is the peak season for both players.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...kton&y2=1989&player_id2=stockjo01&idx=players

Cp3 at his peak was better than Stockton at his peak according to these stats.
Click to expand...
It is interesting to look at this over their entire career, or at least over CP3's career to date. So ran this with the cumulative numbers through CP3's and Stock's 13th year. Just about the only stats CP3 is ahead is in win shares, BPM, and VORP. DRtg and ORtg are basically a wash. Stock is ahead in all of the category percentages (Ast%, Stl%, EFG, etc.).

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ct=John+Stockton&player_id2=stockjo01&y2=1997

But you also have to take win shares and such with a grain of salt. They are at best an approximation and depend on lots of different factors. When looking at it over a season, for example, in 1990 Olajuwan put up a line of 24/14/4.6 blocks, 2 steals, 3 assists, yet Terry Porter, for example, had more win shares that season (close to the same, but a bit higher), along with higher ORtg, DRtg, etc. The very next season Porter had higher win shares and VORP than Hakeem. Would anyone claim that Porter was better than Hakeem? Would anyone in their right mind want to swap Hakeem for Porter? No. And not just no, hell no. A lot depends on their role in the team, their team's success, the other players around them, etc.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1990

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1991
 
Ron Mexico said:
That you seem to be getting upset and bothered about a friendly discussion.

Yes, I'm going on for pages having a discussion about old jazz players on a jazz message board. That's kind of what this message board is for. It's the off season. I do respond to people who are engaging in a discussion.
Click to expand...
I’m the sensitive one. Fish has been pretty been very calm with his posts while owning you. You and I have been the sensitive ones. Me having to deal with an idiot and you doing a lot of backtracking, because your an idiot.
 
LogGrad98 said:
It is interesting to look at this over their entire career, or at least over CP3's career to date. So ran this with the cumulative numbers through CP3's and Stock's 13th year. Just about the only stats CP3 is ahead is in win shares, BPM, and VORP. DRtg and ORtg are basically a wash. Stock is ahead in all of the category percentages (Ast%, Stl%, EFG, etc.).

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ct=John+Stockton&player_id2=stockjo01&y2=1997

But you also have to take win shares and such with a grain of salt. They are at best an approximation and depend on lots of different factors. When looking at it over a season, for example, in 1990 Olajuwan put up a line of 24/14/4.6 blocks, 2 steals, 3 assists, yet Terry Porter, for example, had more win shares that season (close to the same, but a bit higher), along with higher ORtg, DRtg, etc. The very next season Porter had higher win shares and VORP than Hakeem. Would anyone claim that Porter was better than Hakeem? Would anyone in their right mind want to swap Hakeem for Porter? No. And not just no, hell no. A lot depends on their role in the team, their team's success, the other players around them, etc.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1990

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1991
Click to expand...

I would say there are other categories he is ahead in as well but it doesn't really matter.

I think for their careers Stockton is ahead by a decent amount. CP3 stats are basically just his prime. Stockton's stats have his decline years bringing his averages down.
 
Ron Mexico said:
That you seem to be getting upset and bothered about a friendly discussion.

Yes, I'm going on for pages having a discussion about old jazz players on a jazz message board. That's kind of what this message board is for. It's the off season. I do respond to people who are engaging in a discussion.
Click to expand...

What was pointing you to think I was upset and bothered? Was I cursing? Using all caps? Name calling? Making very long drawn out posts trying to prove I’m right?

Why would you think I was upset. I was just having a discussion and speaking my opinion about how you come across on this topic. Nothing to get upset about.
You kinda seem upset and bothered to me tbh.
 
fishonjazz said:
What was pointing you to think I was upset and bothered? Was I cursing? Using all caps? Name calling? Making very long drawn out posts trying to prove I’m right?

Why would you think I was upset. I was just having a discussion and speaking my opinion about how you come across on this topic. Nothing to get upset about.
You kinda seem upset and bothered to me tbh.
Click to expand...
Good hell, CALM DOWN!!!
 
fishonjazz said:
What was pointing you to think I was upset and bothered? Was I cursing? Using all caps? Name calling? Making very long drawn out posts trying to prove I’m right?

Why would you think I was upset. I was just having a discussion and speaking my opinion about how you come across on this topic. Nothing to get upset about.
You kinda seem upset and bothered to me tbh.
Click to expand...
My bad then. I assumed you were upset or bothered when you made up that I liked bashing on Stockton and being critical of him and made a post in the pet peeves section about Stockton haters/doubters. I assumed that something bothered people when they post about it being their pet peeve.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
I’m the sensitive one. Fish has been pretty been very calm with his posts while owning you. You and I have been the sensitive ones. Me having to deal with an idiot and you doing a lot of backtracking, because your an idiot.
Click to expand...
What have I backtracked on?
 
LogGrad98 said:
Good hell, CALM DOWN!!!
Click to expand...
giphy.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top