Kirilenko : October MVP Euroleague

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

F AK and everything about him.

This.... of course I'm assuming "F AK" means Frickin' Awesome Kirilenko

 

[northeast]

well played root!

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Andrei Kirilenko's line today: 17 pts (2/3 FG, 12/13 FT), 9 rebs, 6 stls, 3 blocks, 2 assists, 1 turnover, 35 minutes, 1 win #eurodomination

From the DX Twitter. Find it impressive he did all that taking 3 shots.

 

[green]

This is what is so frustrating about AK. He had the talent to be a hall of famer. Imagine if he ended up with 25+ 5x5 games, 5+ DPOY, the all time leader in blocks, top 5 in steals, etc.

But no, he had to score 20 a game. In a lot of ways he has really hurt his career by not embracing what he is.

 

[MVP]

This is what is so frustrating about AK. He had the talent to be a hall of famer. Imagine if he ended up with 25+ 5x5 games, 5+ DPOY, the all time leader in blocks, top 5 in steals, etc.

But no, he had to score 20 a game. In a lot of ways he has really hurt his career by not embracing what he is.

It was not about him wanting to score 20 a game. It was about AK being a vital part of the team on both ends of the floor and being involved. Sloan pushed him to option nr. 4 or even 5 on offense in 2007 - there were numerous games he was running for 7-8 minutes without attempting a shot and he was left on perimeter to chase guards instead of letting him roam in the paint near the basket where he could have shined.
Real frustrating part about AK's career is that since 2007 he was absolutely underutilized and misused by Sloan. Williams freezing him of the offense in that year did not help either.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This is what is so frustrating about AK. He had the talent to be a hall of famer. Imagine if he ended up with 25+ 5x5 games, 5+ DPOY, the all time leader in blocks, top 5 in steals, etc.

But no, he had to score 20 a game. In a lot of ways he has really hurt his career by not embracing what he is.

AK was good, but c'mon, he was never close to being that good. Hakeem only got 6 5x5's, getting 25 would just be ridiculous.

Interesting side note: Jamaal Tinsley of all people actually managed to record a really impressive 5x5.

 

[MVP]

AK was good, but c'mon, he was never close to being that good. Hakeem only got 6 5x5's, getting 25 would just be ridiculous.

Interesting side note: Jamaal Tinsley of all people actually managed to record a really impressive 5x5.

Tinsley's was in double or tripple overtime as far as I remember. AK had only 6x5 in NBA history in regulation. Hakeem had one but in overtime.

 

[JimLes]

This is what is so frustrating about AK. He had the talent to be a hall of famer. Imagine if he ended up with 25+ 5x5 games, 5+ DPOY, the all time leader in blocks, top 5 in steals, etc.

But no, he had to score 20 a game. In a lot of ways he has really hurt his career by not embracing what he is.

Maybe this is the teacher in me speaking, but I never understood this attitude that what happened with AK was entirely, or even mostly, his fault. Andrei did not want to score 20 a game, which is an unnecessary straw-man since he did not come close to 20PPG even when he was the number 1 option.

For whatever reason, Andrei had issues adjusting to no longer being an important player on offense, and the reaction of the team and many of the fans was to berate him and act as if he should just suck it up. What would have been so wrong about addressing this in a positive, constructive way? Why not sit down with him and talk about his concerns? Why not do something to meliorate them? Why not acknowledge that there is nothing wrong or selfish about a player saying that he is struggling with his role within the team changing?

OK, he should have embraced his role. He didn't. So that's it? If he cannot change, we should call him selfish and weak but we should in no way actually help him change? What kind of an attitude is that? Who actually benefits from this? This isn't simply a case of everyone should have been more understanding of Andrei for Andrei's sake, this is also the case of everyone should have been more understanding of Andrei for the sake of Utah Jazz. The man was an All-Star and a beast of defense and we should just let him fall apart mentally to prove a point? What point? That an NBA player should shut up and do what he's told? That he shouldn't cry? That he shouldn't have issues with his role changing?

People are acting like actual basketball is fantasy basketball. There is a human element to basketball, and it does not go away because someone is making 15 million a year.

 

[MVP]

There is a human element to basketball, and it does not go away because someone is making 15 million a year.

Great point - one which Sloan was never able to understand and master.

 

[LogGrad98]

Maybe this is the teacher in me speaking, but I never understood this attitude that what happened with AK was entirely, or even mostly, his fault. Andrei did not want to score 20 a game, which is an unnecessary straw-man since he did not come close to 20PPG even when he was the number 1 option.

For whatever reason, Andrei had issues adjusting to no longer being an important player on offense, and the reaction of the team and many of the fans was to berate him and act as if he should just suck it up. What would have been so wrong about addressing this in a positive, constructive way? Why not sit down with him and talk about his concerns? Why not do something to meliorate them? Why not acknowledge that there is nothing wrong or selfish about a player saying that he is struggling with his role within the team changing?

OK, he should have embraced his role. He didn't. So that's it? If he cannot change, we should call him selfish and weak but we should in no way actually help him change? What kind of an attitude is that? Who actually benefits from this? This isn't simply a case of everyone should have been more understanding of Andrei for Andrei's sake, this is also the case of everyone should have been more understanding of Andrei for the sake of Utah Jazz. The man was an All-Star and a beast of defense and we should just let him fall apart mentally to prove a point? What point? That an NBA player should shut up and do what he's told? That he shouldn't cry? That he shouldn't have issues with his role changing?

People are acting like actual basketball is fantasy basketball. There is a human element to basketball, and it does not go away because someone is making 15 million a year.

How do you know they did none of that?

Imo, AK is at least 90% culpable in his behavior. See, it is HIS behavior. He had the choice to work hard and contribute in the new team framework, or to leave practices early (check), stay focused on what the team was trying to accomplish or schedule vacations ahead of playoff series being completed (check), lead by example or pout and underperform because he didn't like the new way things were going (check). In all of it he had choices to make too. I think he made poor choices.

But his inability to deal with the changes to the team makeup showed he just doesn't have the mental toughness to be a superstar in the league. It takes a willingness to fight and work harder than everyone else to make a difference. I cannot see an MJ, or Magic or Kobe, or D Wade even, as whiny as he is, melting down like that. If AK was that unwilling to put in the extra effort and help lead the team, then he should have asked for a trade if he was that unhappy here, but he was stuck by a bloated contract that did not reflect what he was capable of bringing to the court.

It would have said a lot about his commitment if he had stayed late after practices to help the younger players, or to meet with the team apart from Sloan as a leader, but by all acccounts he bailed the second he got a chance most often. He never seemed connected to the team after we started adding more solid players (Memo, Booze, D Will), instead he withdrew. Who knows, maybe they pushed him away, but I would bet dollars to donuts it was the other way around.

I hope he has great success in Europe. He is a special player. He just isn't tough enough for the NBA.

 

[JimLes]

How do you know they did none of that?

Imo, AK is at least 90% culpable in his behavior. See, it is HIS behavior. He had the choice to work hard and contribute in the new team framework, or to leave practices early (check), stay focused on what the team was trying to accomplish or schedule vacations ahead of playoff series being completed (check), lead by example or pout and underperform because he didn't like the new way things were going (check). In all of it he had choices to make too. I think he made poor choices.

The choice to shut the edited up and bottle your feelings isn't much of a choice at all. Again, to make a teaching parallel, it's like telling a kid he has a choice to sit down and listen or be tossed from the class. It's not really a choice, it's an ultimatum thinly disguised as a choice.

Whether Andrei was 0% or 100% culpable is utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is whether you think he should've been helped or not. What is relevant is whether you believe that it is important to build relationships within the team or run it like a military camp.

And there is no such think as mental toughness. It's just a sad excuse for people to treat others poorly.

 

[MVP]

The choice to shut the edited up and bottle your feelings isn't much of a choice at all. Again, to make a teaching parallel, it's like telling a kid he has a choice to sit down and listen or be tossed from the class. It's not really a choice, it's an ultimatum thinly disguised as a choice.

Whether Andrei was 0% or 100% culpable is utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is whether you think he should've been helped or not. What is relevant is whether you believe that it is important to build relationships within the team or run it like a military camp.

And there is no such think as mental toughness. It's just a sad excuse for people to treat others poorly.

man, I wish I would have teachers like that when I was in school. Thumbs up!

 

[green]

It was not about him wanting to score 20 a game. It was about AK being a vital part of the team on both ends of the floor and being involved. Sloan pushed him to option nr. 4 or even 5 on offense in 2007 - there were numerous games he was running for 7-8 minutes without attempting a shot and he was left on perimeter to chase guards instead of letting him roam in the paint near the basket where he could have shined.
Real frustrating part about AK's career is that since 2007 he was absolutely underutilized and misused by Sloan. Williams freezing him of the offense in that year did not help either.

LOL. It is Sloan's fault for AK failing as a player. You want more shots? Block shots, get steals, and you will have all the layups you could ever imagine. You want more shots? Hit a freaking three, cut to the basket, be involved instead of pouting in the corner.

 

[green]

AK was good, but c'mon, he was never close to being that good. Hakeem only got 6 5x5's, getting 25 would just be ridiculous.

Interesting side note: Jamaal Tinsley of all people actually managed to record a really impressive 5x5.

Didn't AK have 3 or 4 in one season? If he averages 4 a year for 10 years, that is 40. AK had the talent to do that. He was too worried about getting his 10 shots a game and pouting in the corner.

 

[MVP]

LOL. It is Sloan's fault for AK failing as a player. You want more shots? Block shots, get steals, and you will have all the layups you could ever imagine. You want more shots? Hit a freaking three, cut to the basket, be involved instead of pouting in the corner.

Sorry, but blocking shots and geting steals is not giving you layup. You need to get pass from your PG near the basket and be involved in plays and sets... and Sloan's offense was running 90% through DWill and Boozer with Memo as third option. Sloan was ordering AK to stay in the corner clearing space for Dwill and Boozer to run pick and roll or pick and pop. There were numerous games with 5-6 possesions in a row in 2007 where AK was not even touching the ball on offense, sometimes he was posting up smaller guys wawing hands " here I am open!!" begging for ball and Dwill just plain ignored him most of the time. There were fast breaks when Dwill was bringing ball up and had AK on one wing and Brewer or Harpring on the other wing - 100% ball was going not to AK.
You right, it is not only Sloan's fault, DWill had something to do with it as well, but Sloan as a coach shoulda stopped it right away when he saw deliberate freezing of the offense and he did not do it.
And when I do play basketball with ballhogs who never look to pass you the ball I get pissed, tell them to the face that they suck and and look to play somewhere else. Thats the only thing you can blame AK - for not being tough enough to tell it DWill to the face and for backing off his trade demand in 2007 offseason.

 

[LogGrad98]

The choice to shut the edited up and bottle your feelings isn't much of a choice at all. Again, to make a teaching parallel, it's like telling a kid he has a choice to sit down and listen or be tossed from the class. It's not really a choice, it's an ultimatum thinly disguised as a choice.

Whether Andrei was 0% or 100% culpable is utterly irrelevant. What is relevant is whether you think he should've been helped or not. What is relevant is whether you believe that it is important to build relationships within the team or run it like a military camp.

And there is no such think as mental toughness. It's just a sad excuse for people to treat others poorly.

Teaching and managing are 2 different things. There are times when that is exactly what is expected of employees: toe the line and do what you are being paid to do. As a manager I believe in helping my employees feel part of the team as much as possible. I like a fun environment, get folks involved, give them an atmosphere where they don't mind leaving home to come to work. It takes a lot of effort, and is largely worth it. But I can only do so much. I still now and then have to sit them down and say "look, I have given you 5 chances, but somehow you gotta figure out how to get to work on time". You cannot coddle employees, especially "professionals" in everything. At one point or another that individual is responsible and should be held accountable for his own actions and choices.

I ask again, how do you know the team didn't do some of what you list? Do you know exactly how poorly he was treated? Maybe they tried. Maybe a lot. Maybe he didn't respond. I have seen plenty of employees like that too. No matter how much I am willing to bend to help them out, it isn't enough, they will never be happy. At some point you have to hold people accountable. There is a difference between support and coddling.

And why is it unreasonable to expect an employee to do what his employer is paying him to do? If you are an english teacher, but you are not really happy with that so you start teaching math instead, is that ok? Should we have an intervention with a crisis counselor so you can feel better about doing the job you were hired and are being paid to do, and in the end, if you just cannot come to terms with teaching english should we just say "ok, go ahead and teach math, as long as it helps your self-esteem, it doesn't matter what we need to be successful as a school"? Or is there a point where you should be sat down and told to get in line and do what you are being paid to do or move on?

Again, why did AK leave practices early? Why did players talk about him skipping player meetings, and skipping out on watching videos and the like with the team? Why was he focused on what was coming after the playoffs instead of what was happening during? Why did he not set up meetings with the players or make the effort to talk to the coaches himself? Malone had no issues barging into Sloan's office, by all accounts, why wouldn't AK? I have been in jobs I didn't like, or had jobs with aspects I didn't like. I went and addressed it head on. I talked to my boss or HR or I tried to be proactive in making it a better work environment. If I couldn't make it work, I moved on, but until I did I performed the duties I was paid to the best I could. It is another difference between being a student and an adult. AK, from all evidence we had, simply bottled it all up, stopped performing, did not really try, and broke down, never providing the service he was being paid to provide. At what point is he actually accountable for his actions? Is it really that horrible to expect an adult to act in an adult manner, to at least put forth the effort?

Maybe this attitude of coddling students at all costs is not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes the right answer is suck it up and do what you are supposed to do.

 

[MVP]

Again, why did AK leave practices early? Why did players talk about him skipping player meetings, and skipping out on watching videos and the like with the team? Why was he focused on what was coming after the playoffs instead of what was happening during? Why did he not set up meetings with the players or make the effort to talk to the coaches himself? .

AK never left practices early - lets not make fake stories here. He would be fined by the club for that. He was not staying after practice was over to shoot or work on some other aspects of his game but that is not the same as "leaving early". He had family and kids so it is pretty normal after your work is over to go to your family instead of staying late and working extra right?
Can you show any links to players talking about him missing meetings and video reviews? I have never read about it anywhere, not even in famous DWill interview.
He tried to talk to Sloan numerous times - been published everywhere - nothing changed unfortunately.
And again, getting visa during playoffs may seem like terrible idea to you - but believe to the people from other countries it is very routine thing - you get the date for interview with visa consul - you take it as next time it could be after 3-4 month. Burocracy at its best where they do not care if you NBA all star or janitor in the school. I do not blame AK for that at all.
At the end - why then same player according to some posters failed badly in 2007 NBA season was named MVP of EUROBASKET ( ahead of Gasol, Nowitzki, Parker and other NBA stars ) and won gold with his country just couple month later? Right coaching had something to do with it I think...
That he is killing in Euroleague now is easy to dismiss for haters as it is just "Europe"... so I am waiting for only thing what still needs to happen - for AK to play a season on different NBA team and show that he is still same 5X5 threat in NBA he was in 2004-2006. Then maybe some people will finally understand what really happened to AK in 2007.

 

[JimLes]

You're completely missing the point. The situation was mishandled and it was mishandled over and over. It doesn't matter whether you believe in tough love or kindness, if it doesn't work in a given situation, it doesn't work. You can set all the standards in the world, if they are not being met, what good do they do?

This isn't about whether or not AK should be held accountable for his actions. This is about whether or not you believe that you can let you $75 million investment fail because he "chose to." The Jazz tried tough love and accountability and it didn't work. How in the world do you then just keep doing it, to the tune of $12-15 million a season? If the Jazz really thought Andrei was a villainous jerk and could not be reached, why did they not simply buy his contract out and save themselves some money and worries in the long run. Why didn't they just offer him $25 million back in 2008 and call it a day?

The bottom line is, the Jazz brass fouled up badly somewhere along the way. Whether if it was giving him that contract to begin with, trying to move him to a different position, being too harsh on him or whatever else, it's clear they fouled up. As I said, this foul up was worth more than $50 million. And you're actually telling me that it was worth it because it's important for the team to get across the message that adults should act in an adult manner? Could the Jazz not have made an example of a player making the league minimum? Even if you do believe in accountability and whatever other buzzwords, is the principle really worth this kind of money?

 

[LogGrad98]

AK never left practices early - lets not make fake stories here. He would be fined by the club for that. He was not staying after practice was over to shoot or work on some other aspects of his game but that is not the same as "leaving early". He had family and kids so it is pretty normal after your work is over to go to your family instead of staying late and working extra right?
Can you show any links to players talking about him missing meetings and video reviews? I have never read about it anywhere, not even in famous DWill interview.
He tried to talk to Sloan numerous times - been published everywhere - nothing changed unfortunately.
And again, getting visa during playoffs may seem like terrible idea to you - but believe to the people from other countries it is very routine thing - you get the date for interview with visa consul - you take it as next time it could be after 3-4 month. Burocracy at its best where they do not care if you NBA all star or janitor in the school. I do not blame AK for that at all.
At the end - why then same player according to some posters failed badly in 2007 NBA season was named MVP of EUROBASKET ( ahead of Gasol, Nowitzki, Parker and other NBA stars ) and won gold with his country just couple month later? Right coaching had something to do with it I think...
That he is killing in Euroleague now is easy to dismiss for haters as it is just "Europe"... so I am waiting for only thing what still needs to happen - for AK to play a season on different NBA team and show that he is still same 5X5 threat in NBA he was in 2004-2006. Then maybe some people will finally understand what really happened to AK in 2007.

Can you show any links that show anything different? I remember it all from the years he was catching crap from his team-mates and finally broke down in the playoffs. They talked a lot about him being the first one to leave after practice, that he didn't make an effort to meet with the coaches, and that he didn't participate in team meetings and the like as he should have for a leader of the team. If you have links that prove otherwise, that he was always connected and did everything in his power to improve and make the team better, please post them.

To me, if your team or key members of your team stick around after practice and you high-tail it the second practice is over, that is leaving early, especially when you are THE max money player. Yeah, I have a family. **** YES I have put in extra hours after work. I get paid a salary to get a job done. I don't punch the clock and run home as soon as I can. I stay till I finish my job. If AK's shot is off, or he is not feeling the chemistry with the team, which is part of his job, why wouldn't he put in the work to fix it?

Point is, his behavior sure never pointed to him caring much about it all. Only if AK was the pampered star was he willing to put forth the effort. His shot SUCKED BALLS for over a year and it took the Jazz management bringing in Horny to get him to work on his shot. He only responded when he was coddled, ergo he is mentally weak.

I have said repeatedly I am glad he found a home in Russia and is doing well. If he found a team in the NBA that coddled him too, so he decided to perform and he responded with great stats, I would be happy for him there too. I like AK and was a huge AK homer back in the seaon he earned his max contract and the next. But he lost fans fast with his whiny behavior and haphazard play, all for max bucks. So I am losing no sleep at all if he doesn't come back to the Jazz. He proved one thing, he is not tough enough to compete night in and night out in the NBA and it won't hurt us much if he doesn't come back.

 

[LogGrad98]

You're completely missing the point. The situation was mishandled and it was mishandled over and over. It doesn't matter whether you believe in tough love or kindness, if it doesn't work in a given situation, it doesn't work. You can set all the standards in the world, if they are not being met, what good do they do?

This isn't about whether or not AK should be held accountable for his actions. This is about whether or not you believe that you can let you $75 million investment fail because he "chose to." The Jazz tried tough love and accountability and it didn't work. How in the world do you then just keep doing it, to the tune of $12-15 million a season? If the Jazz really thought Andrei was a villainous jerk and could not be reached, why did they not simply buy his contract out and save themselves some money and worries in the long run. Why didn't they just offer him $25 million back in 2008 and call it a day?

The bottom line is, the Jazz brass fouled up badly somewhere along the way. Whether if it was giving him that contract to begin with, trying to move him to a different position, being too harsh on him or whatever else, it's clear they fouled up. As I said, this foul up was worth more than $50 million. And you're actually telling me that it was worth it because it's important for the team to get across the message that adults should act in an adult manner? Could the Jazz not have made an example of a player making the league minimum? Even if you do believe in accountability and whatever other buzzwords, is the principle really worth this kind of money?

From my last post, since you keep missing this:

I ask again, how do you know the team didn't do some of what you list? Do you know exactly how poorly he was treated? Maybe they tried. Maybe a lot.

To put AK's performance entirely on the Jazz brass is ludicrous. Falls in line with every other falsely-entitled moron screaming nothing is their fault. Sure they could have handled it differently. They could have kept the team exactly the same, kept AK in the primary role, and ran at .500 for a few seasons so AK could rack up stats records and all. Or they could have made moves to try to compete, which they did. Really the thing they should have done was as soon as it was evident he was not going to try very hard to fit into the new group, they should have traded him before he became a liability bigger than his contract. Then they were stuck.