Dont forget there was also a very large signing bonus and when you consider luxury tax it is really double the difference.
KOC had a terrible off-season
- Thread starter oldtimer
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Dont forget there was also a very large signing bonus and when you consider luxury tax it is really double the difference.
No. Only the CAP hit is being penalized by the luxury tax. Big bonus just means you pay him money up-front vs throughout the contract. But it is the same amount of money overall with CAP hit around 5 and a half mil this year, which will be taxed. Same way Raja's and Elson's salaries will be taxed, saving Miller a cool mil this year in luxury tax payments when KOC went with these 2 old farts instead of Wes.
You are being rather obtuse. We could be so much better this year with Wes over Raja (and Elson), and the difference is just 1 mil in lux tax payments. Then next year instead of having a guy who is not even able to produce what Wes did last year as a rookie, and is only going to get worse, we could have had the best defender on the team, who is averaging almost 20 ppg as a starter today on good shooting for a winning club and is young and only going to get better – for mid-level. What is so hard to understand here? Everyone with half a brain, including KOC, if they could this all over again, would match Wes instead of getting Raja and Elson. Unfortunately, KOC preferred to spend nearly the same luxury tax money on elderly Raja and Elson, in spite of having Wes for a year to evaluate him. Enough time has passed to show that KOC screwed up royally, and it’s time to admit it.
You were wrong. Matthews lit us up only for 30 in a blowout tonight. Which is consistent with his other performances as a starter. Still in denial about how big KOC screwed up this franchise letting him go for elderly Raja and Elson in return, plus 1 mil luxury tax savings this year?
My favorite part is it's really not KOC's job to match a ridiculous offer sheet. Whether Matthews continues to produce like this does NOT change that that was an outrageous offer sheet and that it's not KOC's money.
But please, let's place this all on him.
But please, let's place this all on him.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Fine. The Jazz made a fatal move by not resigning Matthews. It's clear after tonight's performance Wes is a future all-star and possibly could go down as one of the greatest ever. I know Cleveland lost a pretty good player in LeBron but frankly I'm starting to believe the Jazz suffered a greater loss in Matthews. I'm not sure how this team, the organization, and the entire community will recover. It's not the fact that the Jazz are on a 55-win pace despite facing one of the tougher schedules in the league, it's the fact that a chance to win 73 games was robbed from us Jazz fans by Kevin O'Connor. It's the fact that a sure-fire 3-peat was stolen right out from under our noses by Portland. And it's the fact that from this day forth no matter what the Jazz accomplish (and w/out Wes it won't be much) it could've been so much greater if Wes was on the team. This franchise is in major major trouble without Matthews and could really take a lesson or two from Portland in how to build a championship team. It's truly possible Jazz basketball has died.
Not matching on Matthews, Mo Williams, trading Eric Maynor and Ronnie Brewer. Kevon O'Connor is worse than Isiah Thomas. Anyone on this message board could've stepped into his job after losing Stockon and Malone and rebuilt this team into a consistent 50-win team. Until we fire KOC, the Utah Jazz will continue to be the league's doormat.
(Actually no, I'll stand by all my previous posts and if we're playing basketball next year this time - and if you're all still Jazz fans - I'll come back on this board and admit it was a major mistake. At. That. Time.)
Not matching on Matthews, Mo Williams, trading Eric Maynor and Ronnie Brewer. Kevon O'Connor is worse than Isiah Thomas. Anyone on this message board could've stepped into his job after losing Stockon and Malone and rebuilt this team into a consistent 50-win team. Until we fire KOC, the Utah Jazz will continue to be the league's doormat.
(Actually no, I'll stand by all my previous posts and if we're playing basketball next year this time - and if you're all still Jazz fans - I'll come back on this board and admit it was a major mistake. At. That. Time.)
Mathews aint the difference maker. He would be lucky to average 15 ppg if Brandon Roy was healthy and playing on that team. And we would have had to shell close to 4-5 mil more this year in order to keep him, considering the LT penalties. Not worth it. He is'nt Eric Gordon or Jason Richardson. And we needed Elson anyways because of Okur's health uncertainity.
Would've been worth it to keep Matthews. Mid-level money even for what would "only" be a 15ppg SG, maybe better, who brings solid defense and hustle. Have you seen our current sorry crop of SGs? Improved up front with Jefferson but took part of that away with a logjam of mediocrity at SG. Wes was definitely worth keeping for what he's getting and doing now. KOC and the Millers screwed up this one.
It's not KOC's job to match offer sheet? BS, complete and total. That's exactly what his job is. I remember how KOC was saying this is different from Mo Williams offer sheet when he screwed that one up. Well, I don't see much difference now. KOC did great finding talent, had it for a year, and then failed to properly evaluate and lost the talent, with other teams reaping the benefits of his original find. Even at mid-level, Wes is underpaid right now given the way he is performing. And as far as it not being KOC's money, Greg Miller went above and beyond agreeing to pay luxury tax for second year in a row, because of irresponsible spendings of KOC in years past. He approved huge extension offer for Okur, trade for Jefferson, and he even approved KOC to continue to go above the tax to sign other players (Raja, Elson) AFTER Wes left, resulting in about the same tax payments (1.5 mil less). So, don't put it on Greg - it was KOC who screwed up here once again, just like with Mo. And as far as B's offer sheet being ridiculous, well, looks like they got more than what they paid for, doesn't it? Besides, Wes was a starter on a top 4 team in the West, put up solid rookie numbers (not far off Deron's rookie year), was as a rookie THE BEST defender on the Jazz (according to Jazz own formula), did even better after taking full time Brewer's spot in starting line-up towards the end of the year, and even better in play-offs. As a rookie. So, is average salary (which is what mid-level is) really too much for a guy with these accomplishments as only a rookie? True, because contract is 5 years, total amount is high, but the guy is young. It's not like we would have committed to pay him when he is almost 37 (oh yeah, we actually did that with his replacement Raja Bell). It's KOC's job to get the best talent to this team, and when you actually already found the talent, then lose it, lose the guy who is producing 20 ppg as a starter on great shooting for a winning team, while also being a great defender, is an incredible failure in doing his job.
Fishsticks
Banned
You are a moron! EVERYONE on this board, around the league, experts said that contract was insane and no way should the jazz match. Shut the hell up already. At the time the decision was right. Maybe koc should hire you as his own personal nostrdamus so we can predict the future of players and never make a mistake like this again.
Fishsticks
Banned
And you really, really just need shut the hell up about boozer too. Seriously. So damn annoying.
Averaging 20 ppg while starting, on good shooting, being the best perimeter defender on the team, as young 2nd year player, all while helping the team actually become a winning ball club is not considered to be a difference maker? This does not make any sense at all.
Roy did play in 2/3 of the games thus far, and Wes actually outperformed him. His stats as a starter are as good better than Roy's this year, while playing together AND when Roy was in his second year. And is a great defender. Is Roy a better player than Wes today when healthy? Sure. Does that in any way discount the fact Wes is capable of scoring 20 ppg when starting, playing good defense, shooting well, while helping the team to a winning record as just a second year player? Absolutely not. While Wes replaced (and perhaps bettered) Roy's production, his own replacement (Bell) can't even replace his production as a rookie.
You think the difference between the production we get from Bell, who can't even do what Wes did as a rookie and is getting older and worse, is better than what Wes has done this year as a starter for Portland, putting up Roy-like numbers, is not worth 3-4 mil extra this year? You cannot be serious. Besides, this is just the first year. After that Wes has room to get even better, while Raja, who is inferior today to what Wes was as a rookie last year, will only get gradually worse.
He is'nt Eric Gordon or Jason Richardson. And we needed Elson anyways because of Okur's health uncertainity.[/QUOTE]
When you have a chance to keep great young talent for yours to come, your best defender, when defense, especially perimeter defense, is one of the biggest problems on the team, and you need to save money, you can always get a scrub like Augustine for a non-guaranteed deal to play 5-10 mins a game - IF AJ or Fess are injured. And this is only for a short time before either AJ/Fess recovers or Okur is back. We are talking about a 4th string C here. He should not stand on the way of getting a good young starter on the team for years to come.
Well, KOC sure did listen to me when I said Jazz need to jump in to break up Minnesota-Dallas deal, when Wolves were about to ship AJ to them for nothing of value in return and we had better assets. Besides, do you really need to be Nostradamus to see that Wes is worth AVERAGE league salary, when he was starting for the top 4 team in the West as a rookie AND putting up good numbers all around (not far off from Deron's rookie season), played best defense on the team, and bettered that in play-offs, while getting raving reviews from Sloan about his work ethics. Really, is that not apparent that a guy like that is worth AVERAGE (not MAX, but average) salary?
Everyone assumed at the time Greg was unwilling to pay luxury tax, and if we kept Wes, that meant 5.5 mil in lux tax. But then he allowed KOC to get old guys like Raja and Elsen for 4 mil in lux tax payments. So, we are not talking about big difference here. Even at the time, this was a huge blunder, given the fact Greg actually was willing to pay money and go farther into the tax. Now, what's insane: ending up paying that money for old washed up guys, who will be nearly 37 before their contract expires, as opposed to young guy with great potential, who already did very well as a rookie?
Fishsticks
Banned
Listen, I agree with you but to cry over spilt milk is pointless. Like I said at the time EVERYONE said to match was insane.
I applaud you for this. Starting your stance with calling me a moron to now being in complete agreement certainly speaks volumes.
Now it is my turn to agree. Of course it is pointless. In fact, posting ANYTHING on the message board is pointless. This is just as pointless as any other topic you have ever seen here. No more and no less. But it could be fun.
Not everyone. Portland clearly thought it wasn't pointless, and in spite of KOC having a year to evaluate Wes, it is them now reaping major benefits. You know, just like Cavs reaping benefits of Mo Williams in exactly the same situation. Besides, I already told you that everyone on this board at the time assumed Greg was not willing to go farther into luxury territory this year. That assumption proved to be wrong, because he approved nearly same same amount this year for elder statesmen Raja and Elson. KOC just screwed up here. Choosing Raja and Elson over Matthews for a mere 1.5 mil difference in luxury tax payments was a huge mistake then as well.
Fishsticks
Banned
Saying you were a moron revolves around two things: Saying this move screwed up our franchise and acting as though this was an obvious blunder by KOC when EVERYONE except Portland, as you say, though the contract was dopey as hell. So dont confuse my agreeing with you with you no longer being a moron. I agree now that it was a mistake like EVERYONE else does.
Fishsticks
Banned
Lets be clear....your the one making moronic statements. Gald you are a member of Mensa congrats on being the sole moron.