Las Vegas Summer League thread

[Miggs]

The biggest issue imo was that both Mike and Donovan were really limited physically. If one of them was right then our fortunes change a bit. I agree Donovan needs to be better defensively. I think a swap of JC for a defensive piece also makes a meaningful difference. Niang was solid on defense last year during the regular season but couldn't keep up in the Clips series... I think Gay will help.

Paschall also said all the right things yesterday about shooting threes and said its been his focus even before the trade. I've got some hope there... someone said the rim protection numbers with him at 5 were okay.

Both guys are way better options than we have ever had for small ball lineups. So if Quin can't figure it out then he needs to go or we need a damn good assistant to come in and take over some of this stuff.

Yeah, Clarkson to me is the obvious guy to trade. We’d lose so much scoring if we trade Bogey. It gets worse next year if Joe retires. Clarkson scores almost as many points I suppose but does it primarily against bench players. If Aminu looks good, and we can trade Clarkson for him, I think I do that. Losing Clarkson will hurt some offensively, but Gay will help make up for a large chunk of that.

 

[infection]

Yeah, true I guess. The Clips small ball on offense throttled us. We want to do the same. But I think the acquisition is more of one in response to our defensive woes vs the Clips. I guess I look at it as, Gobert is getting killed because he just can’t switch quickly enough, and going smaller helps alleviate that. Some anyway. Take him and Bogey out and get five athletic dudes out there. Obviously he was getting killed because Guy’s couldn’t stay in front of their man. Mike wasn’t playing much. Don was hurt. Bogey isn’t great. Anyway, I digress. To me, it won’t mean **** unless Donovan starts to defend. My fear is, he won’t realize this til his second team, and here, will just blame the supporting cast (in his mind), leave, become part of a super team, with a better leader there who demands defense (either in coach or player) and win it all. We coddle him too much. There needs to be someone in his ear, demanding this ****. The only player I see doing that is Mike but they seem like buddies so I don’t know. Hopefully Gay takes on a leadership role like this and can demand it.

It needs to come from Wade.

 

[Miggs]

It needs to come from Wade.

Forgot about him. Very ****ing true. I might DM him on Twitter. Idgaf. I’m shameless.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, Clarkson to me is the obvious guy to trade. We’d lose so much scoring if we trade Bogey. It gets worse next year if Joe retires. Clarkson scores almost as many points I suppose but does it primarily against bench players. If Aminu looks good, and we can trade Clarkson for him, I think I do that. Losing Clarkson will hurt some offensively, but Gay will help make up for a large chunk of that.

Hell no on Aminu for JC. We need a guy that is more a guy to stick on 2s and 3s and not the huge wings. Smart is basically perfect... likely not happening. Melton and White are also great options imo. I doubt those are happening too.

The next move will require a ton of patience and luck.

 

[KqWIN]

Yeah, true I guess. The Clips small ball on offense throttled us. We want to do the same. But I think the acquisition is more of one in response to our defensive woes vs the Clips. I guess I look at it as, Gobert is getting killed because he just can’t switch quickly enough, and going smaller helps alleviate that. Some anyway. Take him and Bogey out and get five athletic dudes out there. Obviously he was getting killed because Guy’s couldn’t stay in front of their man. Mike wasn’t playing much. Don was hurt. Bogey isn’t great. Anyway, I digress. To me, it won’t mean **** unless Donovan starts to defend. My fear is, he won’t realize this til his second team, and here, will just blame the supporting cast (in his mind), leave, become part of a super team, with a better leader there who demands defense (either in coach or player) and win it all. We coddle him too much. There needs to be someone in his ear, demanding this ****. The only player I see doing that is Mike but they seem like buddies so I don’t know. Hopefully Gay takes on a leadership role like this and can demand it.

I don't think Gobert was getting killed defensively. The defense started to fail once the Clippers realized that there were easier places to attack and played away from Gobert. Fact is, the Jazz perimeter guys were getting blown by with little to no resistance and that put Rudy in an impossible situation. He either had to give up a wide open layup or a wide open 3.

A good defensive team would take away the layup, then scramble and rotate out to the shooters the best they can. But the Jazz have done that under Quin. Everyone stays home on their man and there is no concept of helping the helper. It's always been Rudy defending 2v1. He can do that in a PnR when he's guarding the ball handler and the roll man at the same time. He can't help down from the corner on a guy with a free lane to the basket and defend the corner at the same time.

This is why I think going small is a meaningless adjustment defensively. It doesn't address the core issues which 1) getting blown by without resistance and 2) having no defensive rotations once we're beat off the dribble. Gobert is probably a better iso defender than Gay and clearly covers more ground off the ball. OTOH, Gay is better than Bogey at both so that's the substitution that can be made to improve the defense.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This is what I believe Quin is looking at / hoping for, and honestly it's the same for me too. I don't think it's conclusive that small ball kills us. I think the way we've approached it has killed us. I think we're more equipped to handle it, but the bigger issue is being able to toggle between "filter everything to Rudy" and "you guys need to guard the perimeter" and let Rudy move to the perimeter. I've got some specific examples and games in mind where this can work that I'll detail, but I really question Quin's ability to do this, because that part of it ultimately doesn't fall on any personnel changes. It requires him to run a couple different defensive strategies.

We tried some things in the regular season... but I mean we tried some things like my daughters tried sushi... tiny nibbles and then shoved it off the plate.

We went zone versus Denver the night they went ****ing nuclear on us. We need to adjust the principles and have multiple looks... I agree. The biggest adjustment imo is getting some deflections and steals... offenses are getting so good that you can do everything right and they hit contested pullups all night... taking the ball away from people would be a welcome adjustment. We are basically last in the league at steals and deflections. I think most of that is due to personnel though. We've been great before. Having one more defensive "stopper" on the bench might push Royce to engage more frequently too.

 

[KqWIN]

Hell no on Aminu for JC. We need a guy that is more a guy to stick on 2s and 3s and not the huge wings. Smart is basically perfect... likely not happening. Melton and White are also great options imo. I doubt those are happening too.

The next move will require a ton of patience and luck.

I'm a hell no on Aminu because he stinks, but I don't think a guy who sticks on 2s or 3s is more valuable than a big wing that can cover space. If we had prime Gary Payton on the court, teams are still going to work to get the switch with Conley/Mitchell/Bogdanovic and turn the guy into a help defender. Smart is great because I think he's good at both, but it's just not possible to rely on guys to consistently stay in front of their man. The most important thing defensively is to cover space, rotate, recover, closeout ect.

 

[Miggs]

I don't think Gobert was getting killed defensively. The defense started to fail once the Clippers realized that there were easier places to attack and played away from Gobert. Fact is, the Jazz perimeter guys were getting blown by with little to no resistance and that put Rudy in an impossible situation. He either had to give up a wide open layup or a wide open 3.

A good defensive team would take away the layup, then scramble and rotate out to the shooters the best they can. But the Jazz have done that under Quin. Everyone stays home on their man and there is no concept of helping the helper. It's always been Rudy defending 2v1. He can do that in a PnR when he's guarding the ball handler and the roll man at the same time. He can't help down from the corner on a guy with a free lane to the basket and defend the corner at the same time.

This is why I think going small is a meaningless adjustment defensively. It doesn't address the core issues which 1) getting blown by without resistance and 2) having no defensive rotations once we're beat off the dribble. Gobert is probably a better iso defender than Gay and clearly covers more ground off the ball. OTOH, Gay is better than Bogey at both so that's the substitution that can be made to improve the defense.

Read my whole post. I wasn’t blaming Gobert. If it sounded that way, it wasn’t my intent. I clearly stated no one could stay in front of a man.

 

[KqWIN]

Read my whole post. I wasn’t blaming Gobert. If it sounded that way, it wasn’t my intent. I clearly stated no one could stay in front of a man.

Right, but you also mentioned taking him out of the game....which would be an unmitigated disaster IMO.

 

[Miggs]

Hell no on Aminu for JC. We need a guy that is more a guy to stick on 2s and 3s and not the huge wings. Smart is basically perfect... likely not happening. Melton and White are also great options imo. I doubt those are happening too.

The next move will require a ton of patience and luck.

Makes sense. I’ll say this. I have no idea what the Celts have been doing for the last couple years. I sort of hate their moves. The Kemba signing made no sense to me. That said, they might just be dumb enough to trade Smart for Clarkson. IMO, they need more guys like Smart (though ones who can shoot a little better), not less.

Maybe we can do Clarkson AND Whiteside for Smart or something. Throw in a 2nd if we have to.

 

[Miggs]

Right, but you also mentioned taking him out of the game....which would be an unmitigated disaster IMO.

With last year’s roster, yes. With Gay now, no.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think Gobert was getting killed defensively. The defense started to fail once the Clippers realized that there were easier places to attack and played away from Gobert. Fact is, the Jazz perimeter guys were getting blown by with little to no resistance and that put Rudy in an impossible situation. He either had to give up a wide open layup or a wide open 3.

A good defensive team would take away the layup, then scramble and rotate out to the shooters the best they can. But the Jazz have done that under Quin. Everyone stays home on their man and there is no concept of helping the helper. It's always been Rudy defending 2v1. He can do that in a PnR when he's guarding the ball handler and the roll man at the same time. He can't help down from the corner on a guy with a free lane to the basket and defend the corner at the same time.

This is why I think going small is a meaningless adjustment defensively. It doesn't address the core issues which 1) getting blown by without resistance and 2) having no defensive rotations once we're beat off the dribble. Gobert is probably a better iso defender than Gay and clearly covers more ground off the ball. OTOH, Gay is better than Bogey at both so that's the substitution that can be made to improve the defense.

I think some of that was definitely due to Donovan and Mike being hobbled (Mike didn't play much but we had to play JC more and he struggled). The fact that they didn't go to pick and roll and were just blowing by guys is encouraging in a way. Find some guys that can/will stay in front.

Small ball allows you to switch more on defense but overall is not really a great defensive strategy unless you have Siakham, Green, etc. It allows the offense to keep up though. Gay gives us an option to really punish small ball too imo. I think if you commit to keeping Gobert off the glass Gay is able going to have openings to do work. Bogey ain't that guy... Royce is okay... but Rudy has great size... so if Batum and Morris face guard Gobert then PG has to hold off Gay instead of Bojan or Royce... its a much bigger ask imo. Only takes a couple times getting beat for a guy to not commit as hard to Gobert... no one likes it when their guy gets the offensive rebound.

 

[Miggs]

I think some of that was definitely due to Donovan and Mike being hobbled (Mike didn't play much but we had to play JC more and he struggled). The fact that they didn't go to pick and roll and were just blowing by guys is encouraging in a way. Find some guys that can/will stay in front.

Small ball allows you to switch more on defense but overall is not really a great defensive strategy unless you have Siakham, Green, etc. It allows the offense to keep up though. Gay gives us an option to really punish small ball too imo. I think if you commit to keeping Gobert off the glass Gay is able going to have openings to do work. Bogey ain't that guy... Royce is okay... but Rudy has great size... so if Batum and Morris face guard Gobert then PG has to hold off Gay instead of Bojan or Royce... its a much bigger ask imo. Only takes a couple times getting beat for a guy to not commit as hard to Gobert... no one likes it when their guy gets the offensive rebound.

Toronto would laugh at us if we offered Butler, Teague, Bogey and a 1st for Siakam, right?

 

[KqWIN]

With last year’s roster, yes. With Gay now, no.

Gay in for Gobert is going to be horrific defensively (not that it already wasn't). If that's the switch you're making, it's just the same roster but instead you're subbing in someone who is worse at everything.

 

[Miggs]

Gay in for Gobert is going to be horrific defensively (not that it already wasn't). If that's the switch you're making, it's just the same roster but instead you're subbing in someone who is worse at everything.

We’ll be going like that this year though.

 

[KqWIN]

I think some of that was definitely due to Donovan and Mike being hobbled (Mike didn't play much but we had to play JC more and he struggled). The fact that they didn't go to pick and roll and were just blowing by guys is encouraging in a way. Find some guys that can/will stay in front.

Small ball allows you to switch more on defense but overall is not really a great defensive strategy unless you have Siakham, Green, etc. It allows the offense to keep up though. Gay gives us an option to really punish small ball too imo. I think if you commit to keeping Gobert off the glass Gay is able going to have openings to do work. Bogey ain't that guy... Royce is okay... but Rudy has great size... so if Batum and Morris face guard Gobert then PG has to hold off Gay instead of Bojan or Royce... its a much bigger ask imo. Only takes a couple times getting beat for a guy to not commit as hard to Gobert... no one likes it when their guy gets the offensive rebound.

IMO, what makes small ball work defensively is active "smalls" who cover space, rebound, rotate+recover ect. Basically you need smalls who do a lot of big man stuff. Unfortunately for the Jazz, we're playing with 3 guys on the court who provide absolutely zero. Yes there were injuries, but Conley, Mitchell, and Bogey are pretty much zeroes in those areas while fully healthy.

If we're getting cooked defensively, the adjustment is to sub in Gay for a small....not for Gobert. That is asking to get destroyed.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm a hell no on Aminu because he stinks, but I don't think a guy who sticks on 2s or 3s is more valuable than a big wing that can cover space. If we had prime Gary Payton on the court, teams are still going to work to get the switch with Conley/Mitchell/Bogdanovic and turn the guy into a help defender. Smart is great because I think he's good at both, but it's just not possible to rely on guys to consistently stay in front of their man. The most important thing defensively is to cover space, rotate, recover, closeout ect.

I'd add being disruptive as an important defensive trait. I only say we need a guy that can cover 2/3s because Royce does better against bigger wings and Gay should do well too. We got torched by small/quick guards more than I'd like. I'd prefer to get a Smart/Melton/Beverly type more than a RoCo/Tucker/ with our current personnel imo. All are helpful of course.

Smart is probably a bad guy to use because he's incredibly versatile defensively. Legit can handle 1-4 for the most part and does all the rotation, deflection, stuff you'd want with the ability to stick to his defender.

 

[Miggs]

**** it. Make the offer. Bogey, Butler, Teague, and two 1sts for Siakam. If they say no, offer three 1sts. I’m all ****ing in.

 

[KqWIN]

We’ll be going like that this year though.

If the plan is to simply sub in Gay for Gobert, that is a horrific plan. It adds nothing to the lineup defensively and compounds the issues.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

IMO, what makes small ball work defensively is active "smalls" who cover space, rebound, rotate+recover ect. Basically you need smalls who do a lot of big man stuff. Unfortunately for the Jazz, we're playing with 3 guys on the court who provide absolutely zero. Yes there were injuries, but Conley, Mitchell, and Bogey are pretty much zeroes in those areas while fully healthy.

If we're getting cooked defensively, the adjustment is to sub in Gay for a small....not for Gobert. That is asking to get destroyed.

I agree.. you don't sub in Gay for Gobert to get better defensively. You do it as a way to be great on offense in the minutes Gobert is off the court and if it is roughly equivalent to what you would be defensively without Gobert then its a big win. Does having Gay out there instead of Favs hurt you defensively? How much better are you offensively?

Hopefully Gay helps Rudy too... if he has to rotate hard then hopefully Gay can help on the glass or provide secondary rim protection. I think if you add that to a healthy Mike and Donovan the defense survives a team like the clippers last year. Now, Brooklyn this year? Healthy Denver? Phoenix? Lakers? Not sure.. I think we actually matchup well with the Lakers and better with Phoenix... I think it comes down to injury luck out West. If Brooklyn is healthy everyone loses no matter if we added Smart and RoCo.