What's new

Las Vegas: Worst Mass Shooting in US History

But why would you need more than one hand gun with 6 bullets for self defence? What if government offers to buy it from you for lets say 10k per gun? You would still rather keep them all?

Depends on the scenario. For example a shotgun can be far more effective for self defense than a hand gun if someone breaks into your home at night. If you are in a situation where the target is further away a rifle is more effective than a handgun.

If the gov was willing to buy my guns for 10k that would be my new business. Buying weapons for far cheaper than 10k and then selling them back to the gov.
 
But why would you need more than one hand gun with 6 bullets for self defence? What if government offers to buy it from you for lets say 10k per gun? You would still rather keep them all?
I have mixed feelings about all gun control stuff. I don't think the answer is cut and dry. I think all sides of the argument are valid. It's not an easy answer. But yes I would personally sell my guns to the government for that amount of money.

I own a pump action shotgun for self defense in my home. It's the best deterrent in my opinion. I don't even keep bullets in it. I have never had to get it out. Honestly owning dogs keeps people away from my house. Most my guns are for hunting or just to go clay pigeon shooting with these days. They are pretty much exclusively for recreational proposes. I have never needed a gun for self defense and don't anticipate needing one for that reason. although having one just in case is comforting.
 
If the gov was willing to buy my guns for 10k that would be my new business. Buying weapons for far cheaper than 10k and then selling them back to the gov.

lol, no more buying in my proposed scenario. You are left with one gun for self defence and not allowed to own more unless yours if damaged or broken in which case you need to prove it and return it for exchange. I guess you may have some riffle for hunting if you are registered hunter and have a licence for it.
 
This is an idea I've floated here before and I was talking about it with someone at work yesterday.

What if we went to a militia system? Individuals couldn't own an arsenal and certain types of guns, magazine capacities, etc. were restricted. But the militia could maintain an armory. The militia would have certain safety and education requirements as well as liability insurance. Militias could be local or national (different licensing requirements) and could potentially range from just a few members (although it would be difficult for just a few people to afford the licensing and liability costs) to thousands of members.

Is this a compromise that either side could agree to?

Individuals could still own hunting rifles and could get licensed to own handguns. But number of guns and types would be restricted.
 
This is an idea I've floated here before and I was talking about it with someone at work yesterday.

What if we went to a militia system? Individuals couldn't own an arsenal and certain types of guns, magazine capacities, etc. were restricted. But the militia could maintain an armory. The militia would have certain safety and education requirements as well as liability insurance. Militias could be local or national (different licensing requirements) and could potentially range from just a few members (although it would be difficult for just a few people to afford the licensing and liability costs) to thousands of members.

Is this a compromise that either side could agree to?

Individuals could still own hunting rifles and could get licensed to own handguns. But number of guns and types would be restricted.

Wouldn't that be "infringement" though? In this scenario we buy into the 2nd amendment being mostly a militia thing, for the discussion fine. Ok. But that takes us back to infringement of the right on militias and having requirements would be infringement would it not?

Perhaps no the liability insurance as the ACA passed and that seems more like settled law...

Not coming out for or against this idea. Just trying to think it through and discuss it.
 
Wouldn't that be "infringement" though? In this scenario we buy into the 2nd amendment being mostly a militia thing, for the discussion fine. Ok. But that takes us back to infringement of the right on militias and having requirements would be infringement would it not?

Perhaps no the liability insurance as the ACA passed and that seems more like settled law...

Not coming out for or against this idea. Just trying to think it through and discuss it.
Maybe the 2nd ammendment is due for an ammendment lol
 
This forum is retarded. How did this turn into yet another gun vs. anti-gun discussion? Do you all really need me to spell out the major difference between this mass killing and pretty much every other school or theater or whatever radicalized mass killing over the past couple of decades? There is a glaring distinction in this incident that separates it from the others. Raise your hand when you realize what it is. Guns isn't the correct answer.
 
Assault weapons were banned in 1986 (OMG racist republican Ronald Reagan). Existing guns are now called pre-ban an require a class 3 license to own. You can actually still own mortars an a mortar launcher but it is a $200 fee per mortar an you cannot fire them anyway an I think that is a annual fee.

You're wrong, as usual. Class III is a dealership classification. Anyone who is legally capable of purchasing a firearm can purchase a pre-ban gun. They have to get a local authority such as county sheriff, police chief, or judge to sign off and then go through a rigorous BTAFE background check, and then pay the $200 tax stamp. There is no such thing as a class III permit for citizens.
 
This forum is retarded. How did this turn into yet another gun vs. anti-gun discussion? Do you all really need me to spell out the major difference between this mass killing and pretty much every other school or theater or whatever radicalized mass killing over the past couple of decades? There is a glaring distinction in this incident that separates it from the others. Raise your hand when you realize what it is. Guns isn't the correct answer.

Heavily planned. This guy spent a lot of time setting this up. This was not some random shoot my parent then go to the local school. It was incredibly well-orchestrated, way better than Columbine or any other where there was actual planning involved.


And for the record I think debating gun control in this kind of thing is like talking about closing McDonald's because people get fat. It does not address the core of the issue, or the root cause, if you will. In most cases, possibly this one too, the root cause is mental illness of some kind. The way our society stigmatizes and short-changes mental illness guarantees that this kind of thing will continue to happen no matter how long people have to wait for guns. And saying that removing guns entirely is the answer to that, well that is just cruel in inhumane to have such little empathy for people living with mental illness severe enough to cause them to go this route. If we care about people at all we would care about providing mental health care that would mitigate the majority of these things and help people live better, more productive, and happier lives.
 
Last edited:
This is an idea I've floated here before and I was talking about it with someone at work yesterday.

What if we went to a militia system? Individuals couldn't own an arsenal and certain types of guns, magazine capacities, etc. were restricted. But the militia could maintain an armory. The militia would have certain safety and education requirements as well as liability insurance. Militias could be local or national (different licensing requirements) and could potentially range from just a few members (although it would be difficult for just a few people to afford the licensing and liability costs) to thousands of members.

Is this a compromise that either side could agree to?

Individuals could still own hunting rifles and could get licensed to own handguns. But number of guns and types would be restricted.

The meaning of the 2nd amendment was the militia thing. Conservative lawyers groups and other spend a lot of resources and effort to get court cases to change the meaning to individual gun rights. I doubt now that precedence is set in the 2008 District of Columbia v. Heller case that conservatives will back down on that. One of the big pushes of many conservatives groups is to keep the original meaning of the constitution but interpreted in a way that they like. A huge push for quite awhile has been to get court cases to the supreme court on these issues so that they will be upheld.

Changing the meaning from milita to individual gun ownership is relatively new idea. It gained steam around the 70s and only got pushed through in the court case above in 2008.

That would be nice but that is not a compromise for conservative groups. That is a huge step backwards for what they have been fighting for.

Personally I think original meaning of the constitution is a garbage idea. The fact that laws and thoughts about modern issues should be seen through the eyes of our founding fathers is laughable at best to me.
 
Heavily planned. This guy spent a lot of time setting this up. This was not some random shoot my parent then go to the local school. It was incredibly well-orchestrated, way better than Columbine or any other where there was actual planning involved.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner folks!

You aren't stopping this guy by banning guns. If you possibly (theoretically) could ban them completely then he would have found deadlier ways of slaying.
 
The meaning of the 2nd amendment was the militia thing. Conservative lawyers groups and other spend a lot of resources and effort to get court cases to change the meaning to individual gun rights. I doubt now that precedence is set in the 2008 District of Columbia v. Heller case that conservatives will back down on that. One of the big pushes of many conservatives groups is to keep the original meaning of the constitution but interpreted in a way that they like. A huge push for quite awhile has been to get court cases to the supreme court on these issues so that they will be upheld.

Changing the meaning from milita to individual gun ownership is relatively new idea. It gained steam around the 70s and only got pushed through in the court case above in 2008.

That would be nice but that is not a compromise for conservative groups. That is a huge step backwards for what they have been fighting for.

Personally I think original meaning of the constitution is a garbage idea. The fact that laws and thoughts about modern issues should be seen through the eyes of our founding fathers is laughable at best to me.

But dude, what if we lose the protections provided by the 3rd Amendment?

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

And it is funny to me that conservatives talk so much about the Constitution yet I highly doubt many of them are very familiar with the 4th-8th Amendments, which are all essentially protections for the accused. Much of which has been severely eroded as we pack our prisons full of minorities.
 
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner folks!

You aren't stopping this guy by banning guns. If you possibly (theoretically) could ban them completely then he would have found deadlier ways of slaying.

I disagree. Yes he could have made bombs in his garage but those are unlikely to do the kind of damage he did unless they are large and complex bombs. Those are also much easier items for the government to track materials used to build bombs that are going to do major damage. These are things that they are already tracking and have stopped through the counter terrorism efforts. For example they stopped a kid and UVU about 5-10 years ago who was planning a mass killing that included bombs through tips about strange behavior and searching for strange items.

Maybe he would have done more without guns that is unknown but studies have shown that more people will be stopped by gun control of some kind. That is the main point. There is a reason why there is direct correlation between number of guns owned and mass shootings by countries as well as by states within the US.

We dont know enough about this guy to draw conclusions yet. How much time did he spend planning? We dont know yet. But generally people change their mind over time. The longer it takes to get deadly items the less likely he is to use them and more likely he changes his mind.

Honestly this shooting is very sad but it is small compared to the gun deaths we have annually. There are bigger issues than mass shootings but this brings attention for a need to work on slowing gun violence.

I will admit this issue is too complex for me to know the answers to but it is something we need to be dealing with.
 
But dude, what if we lose the protections provided by the 3rd Amendment?



And it is funny to me that conservatives talk so much about the Constitution yet I highly doubt many of them are very familiar with the 4th-8th Amendments, which are all essentially protections for the accused. Much of which has been severely eroded as we pack our prisons full of minorities.

Yeah, that is the problem with the originalism idea with the constitution that roughly half of the US supports either directly or through voting. I think it is a major problem and its hard to debate those issues with people who feel that way. They are pretty dug in. It does make me question the direction we will head as a country over the course of my life.
 
Yeah, that is the problem with the originalism idea with the constitution that roughly half of the US supports either directly or through voting. I think it is a major problem and its hard to debate those issues with people who feel that way. They are pretty dug in. It does make me question the direction we will head as a country over the course of my life.

But I have zero confidence the Constitution could be overhauled in a way that would leave us better off. We'd honestly need to split into multiple countries with vastly different ideologies each with their own Constitution in order to get anything that the majority could support. I think we're gonna have to ride this thing until the wheels fall off.
 
But I have zero confidence the Constitution could be overhauled in a way that would leave us better off. We'd honestly need to split into multiple countries with vastly different ideologies each with their own Constitution in order to get anything that the majority could support. I think we're gonna have to ride this thing until the wheels fall off.

And if they do it is going to be ugly as hell.
[MENTION=181]Ron Mexico[/MENTION], I disagree on the bombs. It can be fairly easy to create bombs that can cause mass damage to a crowd of people. Devices that significantly damage buildings and structures is a different matter entirely.
 
And if they do it is going to be ugly as hell.
[MENTION=181]Ron Mexico[/MENTION], I disagree on the bombs. It can be fairly easy to create bombs that can cause mass damage to a crowd of people. Devices that significantly damage buildings and structures is a different matter entirely.

I guess you guys could be right. I dont see much evidence of it happening though. Studies show that when guns get taken away or controlled mass killings go down. Why are these types of things that were happening in places like Australia not happening then? That argument gets used a lot yet I have not seen evidence of it where we do have case studies to look at.

Plus again even if bombs can be made to do as much damage they still take more time to plan and build which reduces the chance of them being used. If they are more deadly why arent people like this guy doing that instead? What is he going after guns? I guess maybe that is something we cant know.

Personally mass shootings get more coverage but they are less of an issue than other types of gun killings like homicide and the even bigger issue of gun deaths from suicide.
 
I disagree. Yes he could have made bombs in his garage but those are unlikely to do the kind of damage he did unless they are large and complex bombs. Those are also much easier items for the government to track materials used to build bombs that are going to do major damage. These are things that they are already tracking and have stopped through the counter terrorism efforts. For example they stopped a kid and UVU about 5-10 years ago who was planning a mass killing that included bombs through tips about strange behavior and searching for strange items.

Maybe he would have done more without guns that is unknown but studies have shown that more people will be stopped by gun control of some kind. That is the main point. There is a reason why there is direct correlation between number of guns owned and mass shootings by countries as well as by states within the US.

We dont know enough about this guy to draw conclusions yet. How much time did he spend planning? We dont know yet. But generally people change their mind over time. The longer it takes to get deadly items the less likely he is to use them and more likely he changes his mind.

Honestly this shooting is very sad but it is small compared to the gun deaths we have annually. There are bigger issues than mass shootings but this brings attention for a need to work on slowing gun violence.

I will admit this issue is too complex for me to know the answers to but it is something we need to be dealing with.

Straw man.
 
The obvious first step to me is to actually research gun violence, something that our government has curtailed under the NRA's influence. Every time one of these events happen, people run to their extreme positions (fear of guns being taken away or strict gun control laws). Neither of the extreme positions will ever work in the USA, so nothing gets done. No one will even talk about doing the research needed. We will never stop all mass shootings or murders or evil. Yet I don't understand why that means we shouldn't stop whatever gun violence we can, based upon studies and research done that will help determine the best ways to do that. We apparently have 92 people die from gun violence EVERY DAY in the USA (accidents, suicides, murder), and we could stop a lot of it if we would put money into research and education. But no, instead we prefer people dying to taking any sort of reasonable approach to the problem.

This article is from a couple of years ago, after the San Bernardino shooting.

http://www.newsweek.com/why-there-lack-gun-violence-research-unites-states-400912

As the world waits for answers regarding a motive in Wednesday’s shooting in San Bernardino, California —the latest in a seemingly endless stream of mass shootings that have plagued the United States—it may come as a surprise that little is known about the causes of U.S. gun violence.

In the 1990s, the National Rifle Association (NRA) began lobbying Congress to limit the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s funding*after the CDC financially backed a study that found a strong correlation between having a gun in the home and an increased risk of homicide.

In 1996, under pressure from the NRA, Congress passed a budget amendment prohibiting federal funds from going toward research that would “advocate or promote gun control.”*That year, Congress also reallocated the $2.6 million dedicated to researching guns to research on brain injuries.

Though the amendment’s language doesn’t explicitly ban gun violence research, it effectively halted the CDC’s related efforts. The reason, according to Alice Chen, executive director of Doctors for America, is that “advocacy” is being broadly interpreted.
A report issued this summer by the House Committee on Appropriations addressing CDC limitations on gun research says that the intent of the restriction is “to prevent activity” (such as data collection)*“that could be used in any manner,” including influencing policy, that would “limit access to guns, ammunition, or to create a list of gun owners.”

To avoid further defunding, the CDC has tread lightly with its gun-related research, Chen says. This has resulted in a lack of comprehensive data on who is barred from owning a gun, why and how guns are procured, what drives people to commit gun violence and how the weapon makes its way into different hands, including*children’s.

On Wednesday, the same day the*shooting in San Bernardino left 14 dead and 21 injured,*nine medical associations, including Chen’s Doctors for America, publicly urged Congress to reverse the ban. In November, House Democrats made a similar statement.

“We dedicate $240 million a year on traffic safety research, more than $233 million a year on food safety*and $331 million a year on the effects of tobacco, but almost nothing on firearms that kill 33,000 Americans annually,” the lawmakers wrote in a letter.*“The result is a lack of fundamental research on gun violence, gun safety, and what public policy measures will effectively stem the tide of gun deaths.”

Even former U.S. Representative*Jay Dickey (R-Ark.), the author of the original amendment limiting gun violence research, has come out against the continued prohibition. “It is my position that somehow or some way we should slowly but methodically fund such research until a solution is reached,” Dickey wrote in a Tuesday letter to the House Democrats’ task force on gun violence prevention. “Doing nothing is no longer an acceptable solution.”

Dickey said in an October interview with The Huffington Post that research could have prevented restrictions to gun access. “If we had somehow gotten the research going,” he said, “we could have somehow found a solution to the gun violence without there being any restrictions on the Second Amendment.”

In 2013, President Barack Obama signed an executive order calling for the CDC to resume gun violence research. Despite the presidential go-ahead, the CDC has stuck to the decades-old prohibition. CDC health communications specialist Courtney Lenard told CBS that threats of defunding underlie its decision.

On Thursday, for instance, the CDC released a 14-page report that homes in on gun violence in Wilmington, Delaware, which has one of the nation’s highest murder rates. Although the study analyzes 127 recorded shootings that occurred in the medium-sized city of nearly 700,000 in 2013, it avoids examining how gunmen acquired their weapons*or whether restrictions on access would lower crime rates.

“We’re going to get to the bottom of this,” Obama said in the wake of the San Bernardino shooting. “We’re going to have to, I think, search ourselves as a society to make sure that we take some basic steps that make it harder—not impossible—but harder for individuals to get access to weapons.”

To create a solution, however, one must first understand the problem at hand. “This is so common sense that we need data in order to move forward,” says Chen. “The way that we figure out if something is going to work is we research it.”

Others:
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2013/01/14/169164414/lack-of-up-to-date-research-complicates-gun-debate

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/gun-control-laws-research/424956/
 
Back
Top