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Las Vegas: Worst Mass Shooting in US History

Ron Mexico said:
I guess you guys could be right. I dont see much evidence of it happening though. Studies show that when guns get taken away or controlled mass killings go down. Why are these types of things that were happening in places like Australia not happening then? That argument gets used a lot yet I have not seen evidence of it where we do have case studies to look at.

Plus again even if bombs can be made to do as much damage they still take more time to plan and build which reduces the chance of them being used. If they are more deadly why arent people like this guy doing that instead? What is he going after guns? I guess maybe that is something we cant know.

Personally mass shootings get more coverage but they are less of an issue than other types of gun killings like homicide and the even bigger issue of gun deaths from suicide.
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I typed this once but my reply didn't post...

All you need is a device that will propel items like nails or ball bearings at high speeds for say up to 100 feet. Bodies are soft.

To me this points less to guns, even those clearly magnify the damage, and more to do with there being some vile and terrible flaw in our society. Guns are not driving people to this. Sure it makes it easier but it is not the cause. What is driving Americans to do these horrible things? That needs to be addressed as well.

And I am not opposed to some level of gun control. I don't want just any weapon to be readily available. like an Uzi for example...
 
Stoked said:
I typed this once but my reply didn't post...

All you need is a device that will propel items like nails or ball bearings at high speeds for say up to 100 feet. Bodies are soft.

To me this points less to guns, even those clearly magnify the damage, and more to do with there being some vile and terrible flaw in our society. Guns are not driving people to this. Sure it makes it easier but it is not the cause. What is driving Americans to do these horrible things? That needs to be addressed as well.

And I am not opposed to some level of gun control. I don't want just any weapon to be readily available. like an Uzi for example...
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A go-go-go, work harder and longer, hyper competitive mentality. IMO.
 
Stoked said:
I typed this once but my reply didn't post...

All you need is a device that will propel items like nails or ball bearings at high speeds for say up to 100 feet. Bodies are soft.

To me this points less to guns, even those clearly magnify the damage, and more to do with there being some vile and terrible flaw in our society. Guns are not driving people to this. Sure it makes it easier but it is not the cause. What is driving Americans to do these horrible things? That needs to be addressed as well.

And I am not opposed to some level of gun control. I don't want just any weapon to be readily available. like an Uzi for example...
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Sure they are ways to hurt people besides guns. They can be effective I am not arguing that. My point is people are not using those types of devices with any frequency that is alarming even in countries that have gun control. In countries like Australia when gun control has gone into place these mass killings have gone down and none of these types of killings have gone up. The longer it takes to make something or plan something the less likely someone is to carry it out especially when it comes to killing another human. Guns are easier to get a hold of and easier to kill someone with. Even waiting to get a gun or having less access to your own gun prevents deaths.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Lol, How so? All of the points?
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The first. Your first acts like bombs are the only other means of terrorism and you are using it to imply a justification of your pre-determined stance rather than addressing what Log and I wrote. You then made the false claim that bombs are hard to come by. We learned that's not true from the Oklahoma city bombing. That was a prepared attack (seemingly) similar to this one. So was 9/11.

Your second point is problematic as well since we have some studies showing higher rates of terrorism in European countries with stricter gun control laws. The death toll rate looks to be lower though so your point in full is relevant.

On a side note, if you're really interested in the whole America has higher violence rates talking point then you should look into abstract statistics such as the amount of serial killers. We are on par with Canada, Europe, and Australia.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
A go-go-go, work harder and longer, hyper competitive mentality. IMO.
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I believe this btw. We are only meant to take so much stress. Obviously some of us can take more than others. But generally speaking it's why you see a lot child stars and young stud athletes flame out and become drug addicts. The pressure becomes too great and they can't handle the stress that comes with it. As adults, I find this to be true as well. Just in different ways.
 
Cappy Smurf sending me messages about my mom's privates. Two things - 1) Classy 2) Gross.
Dude is super butt hurt about my posts in here.
Hehepeepeecaca
 
Ron Mexico said:
Sure they are ways to hurt people besides guns. They can be effective I am not arguing that. My point is people are not using those types of devices with any frequency that is alarming even in countries that have gun control. In countries like Australia when gun control has gone into place these mass killings have gone down and none of these types of killings have gone up. The longer it takes to make something or plan something the less likely someone is to carry it out especially when it comes to killing another human. Guns are easier to get a hold of and easier to kill someone with. Even waiting to get a gun or having less access to your own gun prevents deaths.
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I think we cannot ignore the societal impact. In some cultures it just isn't a thing to do this kind of thing. Copycatting is very common in crime, one crime breeds other similar crimes, especially high-profile crimes. Our society has bred the mass-killer. At this point it will be very tough to reverse it by just restricting what weapon they use. Look at the OK City bombing. Nut-jobs find a way. And we have bred a culture of nut-jobs.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
I believe this btw. We are only meant to take so much stress. Obviously some of us can take more than others. But generally speaking it's why you see a lot child stars and young stud athletes flame out and become drug addicts. The pressure becomes too great and they can't handle the stress that comes with it. As adults, I find this to be true as well. Just in different ways.
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I think this plays into the societal influences I mentioned. In Germany for example (the other culture I know best, so yeah), the expectation is that everyone takes every day off they have coming to them. This meant while I was there I took 5 weeks off, and that on top of the mandated state and federally mandated days off (about a dozen total). And frankly you didn't see or hear about burn-out. Safety in the workplace wasn't even a point of discussion. No one worried about this kind of thing. Not to say violent acts didn't happen but they made sure people had time to decompress and I feel that has an impact. Again it is taking care of mental illness on some level, or heading it off. Reduce stress, improve quality of life, these kinds of things just don't come up.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I think we cannot ignore the societal impact. In some cultures it just isn't a thing to do this kind of thing. Copycatting is very common in crime, one crime breeds other similar crimes, especially high-profile crimes. Our society has bred the mass-killer. At this point it will be very tough to reverse it by just restricting what weapon they use. Look at the OK City bombing. Nut-jobs find a way. And we have bred a culture of nut-jobs.
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I agree that there are major societal problems that cannot be solved with simply banning something. That does not mean it cant be apart of the solution or it isnt something we should look at. I dont think simply banning types of guns or stricter control will solve all of it, but can help. Even if it doesnt stop all of these types of situations it could help some of them which is still well worth it.

Slowing things down has been shown to help.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I think this plays into the societal influences I mentioned. In Germany for example (the other culture I know best, so yeah), the expectation is that everyone takes every day off they have coming to them. This meant while I was there I took 5 weeks off, and that on top of the mandated state and federally mandated days off (about a dozen total). And frankly you didn't see or hear about burn-out. Safety in the workplace wasn't even a point of discussion. No one worried about this kind of thing. Not to say violent acts didn't happen but they made sure people had time to decompress and I feel that has an impact. Again it is taking care of mental illness on some level, or heading it off. Reduce stress, improve quality of life, these kinds of things just don't come up.
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Yep. In the good ol' U. S. of A., it's all about more and more.

Profits were up 7% last year. Good job? No, **** you. Now we want them to go up 8% this year. You want time off? **** you. We'll find someone who will work their *** off to have this job. The West Coast is starting to get it right but companies like many out there are few and far between.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
A go-go-go, work harder and longer, hyper competitive mentality. IMO.
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Bah.

I'm working 80+ hours a week right now. Even if I wanted to (and I don't) I wouldn't have the time to plan something like this and execute it.

People just aren't happy. Money doesn't do it. The latest toys don't do it. Their spouse or families don't do it. They're searching, aren't finding, and they're angry. Nobody is content with what they have...which could be attributed partly to a hyper competitive mentality I guess, but I wouldn't go that far. I think people work harder because they think if they have more they'll be happier...and that never works.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Heavily planned. This guy spent a lot of time setting this up. This was not some random shoot my parent then go to the local school. It was incredibly well-orchestrated, way better than Columbine or any other where there was actual planning involved.


And for the record I think debating gun control in this kind of thing is like talking about closing McDonald's because people get fat. It does not address the core of the issue, or the root cause, if you will. In most cases, possibly this one too, the root cause is mental illness of some kind. The way our society stigmatizes and short-changes mental illness guarantees that this kind of thing will continue to happen no matter how long people have to wait for guns. And saying that removing guns entirely is the answer to that, well that is just cruel in inhumane to have such little empathy for people living with mental illness severe enough to cause them to go this route. If we care about people at all we would care about providing mental health care that would mitigate the majority of these things and help people live better, more productive, and happier lives.
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Is there any evidence of mental illness in the shooters history in this instance?
 
fishonjazz said:
Is there any evidence of mental illness in the shooters history in this instance?
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Besides going on a killing spree and then committing suicide?


I mean he has a family history of it as well. His father was diagnosed with mental disorders:
Patrick Benjamin Paddock, also known as Benjamin Hoskins Paddock, was wanted by the agency for escaping from prison in 1968, where he was incarcerated for armed bank robbery. He was diagnosed as psychopathic, with suicidal tendencies.

He was bumped from the most-wanted list in 1977, according to the FBI's website.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/card/stephen-paddock-s-father-was-fbi-s-most-wanted-list-n806781
 
Stoked said:
And if they do it is going to be ugly as hell.
[MENTION=181]Ron Mexico[/MENTION], I disagree on the bombs. It can be fairly easy to create bombs that can cause mass damage to a crowd of people. Devices that significantly damage buildings and structures is a different matter entirely.
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Weird that there are way more shootings than bombings then.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Sure they are ways to hurt people besides guns. They can be effective I am not arguing that. My point is people are not using those types of devices with any frequency that is alarming even in countries that have gun control. In countries like Australia when gun control has gone into place these mass killings have gone down and none of these types of killings have gone up. The longer it takes to make something or plan something the less likely someone is to carry it out especially when it comes to killing another human. Guns are easier to get a hold of and easier to kill someone with. Even waiting to get a gun or having less access to your own gun prevents deaths.
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Doesn't seem like anyone is willing or able to discuss a counter to this point you present.
 
JustTheTip said:
Bah.

I'm working 80+ hours a week right now. Even if I wanted to (and I don't) I wouldn't have the time to plan something like this and execute it.

People just aren't happy. Money doesn't do it. The latest toys don't do it. Their spouse or families don't do it. They're searching, aren't finding, and they're angry. Nobody is content with what they have...which could be attributed partly to a hyper competitive mentality I guess, but I wouldn't go that far. I think people work harder because they think if they have more they'll be happier...and that never works.
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Some great points from the various sides looking in. I get what Log says and I get what you say. For me, personally, taking a government job was the worst thing I could do. I don't work hard at all nearly ever, make plenty of money, have a secure retirement, and get plenty of vacation and sick leave. For me that has not exactly been fulfilling even though probably 80% of society would love to be in my wife and my shoes.

Some societies like to work hard. Look at Japanese culture. Some societies like the leisure and collective leveling of wages. Germany doesn't have low mass shootings (and they are one of the very lowest per capita) because of gun laws or the reasons Log stated. They have low gun crime rates because that is their cultural wiring.
 
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