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Las Vegas: Worst Mass Shooting in US History

They would warp at the same rate his barrel would.

Yes, it is true. You can ultimately melt it, faster than a barrel. It was a much higher rate of speed than this guy was shooting so I am wrong there.

Some brands stand up better than others depending on the quality.

You don't believe me, that's fine.
 
Yes, it is true. You can ultimately melt it, faster than a barrel. It was a much higher rate of speed than this guy was shooting so I am wrong there.

Some brands stand up better than others depending on the quality.

You don't believe me, that's fine.

I think we're saying essentially the same thing.

A quality suppressor won't warp any faster than your barrel will.
 
Strawman. (an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.)
I never said anything about banning anything.

And what would you like done with suppressors past what is already current law?
 
Link: http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/03/democrats-have-no-idea-how-to-prevent-mass-shootings/

for you lazy fellow human beings.
copy pasted down below!

Unlike the vast majority of pundits, politicians, and late-night celebrity talk show hosts who vaguely implore Republicans to “do something,” Nick Kristof of The New York Times has taken the time to offer eight ideas he believes would help alleviate mass shootings. In fact, the headline of the article reads “Preventing Mass Shootings Like the Vegas Strip Attack.” Alas, the column doesn’t fulfill its promise, though it is useful in illustrating the problem Democrats face in the gun-control debate.

The column gets off to an inauspicious start when Kristof points to Australia’s confiscation of guns as a model for policy — which is, of course, a non-starter in a nation with more than 300 million firearms and an individual right to own them. Every time a pundit mentions Australian gun policy he is, in essence, conceding that confiscation is the ideal we should be working towards. The success of the Australian program is highly debatable, and anyone who fails to mention that the United States saw similar drops in gun crimes and homicides during the same timeframe — despite a big spike in gun ownership — is already suspect.

In any event, Kristof has eight additional ideas for us.

“1 – Impose universal background checks for anyone buying a gun. Four out of five Americans support this measure, to prevent criminals or terrorists from obtaining guns.”

This is tantamount to pleading for the existing ban on “machine guns” or “automatic weapons.” In 1993, Bill Clinton created the National Instant Background Check System. Since then, although there are some exemptions, the vast majority of gun owners go through a background check. There were 27,538,673 of them in 2016 alone (pdf). The reason Kristof throws in the word “universal,” I assume, is that he believes there are “loopholes” in this policy at gun shows and interstate purchases.

Yet, as my colleague Sean Davis has explained:

If you purchase a firearm from a federal firearms licensee (FFL) regardless of the location of the transaction — a gun store, a gun show, a gun dealer’s car trunk, etc. — that FFL must confirm that you are legally allowed to purchase that gun. That means the FFL must either run a background check on you via the federal NICS database, or confirm that you have passed a background check by examining your state-issued concealed carry permit or your government-issued purchase permit. There are zero exceptions to this federal requirement.

What’s more, Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock did not, as far as we know (and these things can change as reporting is ongoing), have a criminal record. According to numerous reports, he obtained all his firearms legally and without raising any red flags while passing numerous background checks. In fact, most of the mass shooters who have terrorized Americans in recent years didn’t have any criminal records. Most could pass background checks, and did. Some were radicalized and known to the FBI. Most were mentally anguished rather than criminally inclined, which is an exceptionally difficult thing to define, predict, or control.

It is true that occasionally the system failed. This happened in the case of Dylann Roof, who should have been stopped by a background check, but a breakdown in “paperwork and communication between a federal background check worker and state law enforcement” allowed him to purchase a handgun. Make the system we have better.

“2. Impose a minimum age limit of 21 on gun purchases. This is already the law for handgun purchases in many states, and it mirrors the law on buying alcohol.”

Well, some of us believe it’s absurd that 18-year-olds can support themselves, have families, and join the military, but are prohibited from buying a beer. But that’s another debate. Many states already have age 21 limits on purchasing guns. Not that it really matters. The vast majority of the mass shooters over the past decade were over 21. Most of them were well over 21.

The ones that weren’t, like Adam Lanza, illegally obtained their guns from legal owners. Lanza stole his guns from his mother, who had legally registered every one of them. I couldn’t find a single major mass shooting (this is typically defined as four or more people killed or injured by gunfire, which includes many criminal events that most people would not associate with what happened in Las Vegas, but that’s another story) who had legally purchased weapons as an 18- to 20-year-old. It seems dubious to suggest that passing such a law would do anything to “prevent” mass shootings.

“3. Enforce a ban on possession of guns by anyone subject to a domestic violence protection order. This is a moment when people are upset and prone to violence against their exes.”

Taking someone’s rights away because he or she is “upset” or potentially violent might work in the “Minority Report” but it is likely unconstitutional here in the real world. In fact, in some ways, a case about just this topic sparked the idea that grew into the Heller case and ended up properly codifying the Second Amendment as an individual right.

It came in 1998, when a doctor named Timothy Joe Emerson was in the midst of an acrimonious divorce and his wife requested a restraining order against him from a Texas court. At the time, Emerson had been collecting guns for years and legally owned around 30 firearms. What Emerson didn’t know was that federal law at the time forbade anyone under a domestic restraining order from possessing firearms. He was arrested. Emerson’s court-appointed lawyer argued that without any judicial finding that his client posed a danger to his wife, Emerson still had a constitutional right to own a gun. And he won. It was the Emerson decision that sparked a number of libertarian think tank legal scholars to challenge DC gun laws.

“4. Limit gun purchases by any one person to no more than, say, two a month, and tighten rules on straw purchasers who buy for criminals. Make serial numbers harder to remove.”

This is like limiting soda sizes. The idea that shooters will be stopped because they can only purchase two guns per month seems dubious considering many of these shootings have been meticulously planned, none more, it seems, than Paddock’s mass murder in Vegas. There is also the problem of arbitrarily limiting citizens from practicing their constitutional rights. This would be like arguing that we should limit columnists to practicing their freedom of speech to only two columns a week because words are mightier than the sword.

“5. Adopt microstamping of cartridges so that they can be traced to the gun that fired them, useful for solving gun crimes.”

To my understanding, every mass shooting incident has been solved. How this regulation would prevent more is unclear. The rest of Kristof’s suggestions focus on gun safety measures that have nothing to do with mass shootings.

“6. Invest in ‘smart gun’ purchases by police departments or the U.S. military, to promote their use. Such guns require a PIN or can only be fired when near a particular bracelet or other device, so that children cannot misuse them and they are less vulnerable to theft. The gun industry made a childproof gun in the 1800’s but now resists smart guns.”

This suggesting is irrelevant on a number of levels. For one, smart guns would do little or nothing to “prevent” most mass shootings. Second, no major Second Amendment advocacy group or politician I know of opposes the production or promotion of “smart guns” — they oppose the state compelling people to use them. There are a few other problems: They don’t work yet. They are impractical. They are intrusive to law-abiding gun owners.

“7. Require safe storage, to reduce theft, suicide and accidents by children.”

It’s unclear how these requirements would “prevent” mass shootings, but often the proposed safe storage legislation makes it virtually impossible for gun owners to protect themselves or their family. Regardless, many states already have such laws and every state already has laws covering negligent behavior regarding children.

There is no correlation between gun ownership and suicide rates.

“8. Invest in research to see what interventions will be more effective in reducing gun deaths. We know, for example, that alcohol and guns don’t mix, but we don’t know precisely what laws would be most effective in reducing the resulting toll. Similar investments in reducing other kinds of accidental deaths have been very effective.”

Again, there is no evidence that mass shootings are fueled by alcohol or substance abuse, but rather that they are fueled by mental illness and radicalism. There are already numerous studies regarding gun use and abuse, and one hopes others study the data, as well. But if Kristof is suggesting that the centers for Disease Control participate, the answer is that there is no reason to further politicize the agency. Because no matter how well-intentioned people try to be in this debate, that’s almost always the case. That includes Kristof’s column, which fails to offer a single idea short of confiscation that would stop mass shootings in the future.

David Harsanyi is author of the forthcoming “First Freedom: A Ride through America’s Enduring History with the Gun, From the Revolution to Today” (Threshold Editions).
 
So you want to argue they can make situations more deadly, and do nothing about it?

Ok.
A.Lots of thing can make things more deadly but shouldn't be banned.
B.i don't have enough data to have an opinion on the legality of suppressors.
Part of why I wanted to discuss it.

Just made common sense to me that quieter might be preferable to louder if you are a shooter who wants to either get away or evade capture/detection as long as possible to take out as many people as possible.

I didn't think my line of thinking was unreasonable or unique or controversial or anything.
 
Then wear proper ear muffs.

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I ain't wearin muffs when I'm hunting bruh. Then I can't be super sneaky and hear the animals. I do wear muffs when I target shoot, but honestly, they're a pain in the ***. And suppressors are cool.

You're still not addressing the main question though.

What's wrong with the current law, and have we had any issues with suppressors to date?
 
I ain't wearin muffs when I'm hunting bruh. Then I can't be super sneaky and hear the animals. I do wear muffs when I target shoot, but honestly, they're a pain in the ***. And suppressors are cool.

You're still not addressing the main question though.

What's wrong with the current law, and have we had any issues with suppressors to date?
Should we make all laws after the fact or be preemptive?

Gun shot sounds should not be made any less loud or obvious.



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Suppressors have been around for decades. Never had a problem with them.

They take a 9 month federal background check to get one.

But yeah, let's get rid of them. Logic.
Yes, it is logical. Right now the NRA is trying to remove that 9 month check. The American people have sat by for too long and let the NRA control legislation. Its time people stand up for major reform.

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We spend so much money hunting terrorist in foreign countries who kill a fraction of what guns do in America but we freak out about gun control?

We made marijuana illegal but guns are legal?

Que?

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1. Private gun sales are what he was discussing with his original point which is not addressed. But I agree current laws should be worked with and better enforced. So I agree with his final point but he missed a lot
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting
Guess he didnt research that one much. I am guessing there are more since he missed a big recent one. His logic in general is just poor on this as well. H is using individual cases and not statistics to make his point seem stronger.
3. I agree with his critic of this point. We cant preemptively take away peoples guns if they have not been convicted of something. This would be abused. But it is a good example of the dangers of guns and why deaths decrease with less guns around. People generally act rashly and will reconsider later.
4. Again very poor logic and preying on recency bias to make his point seem stronger. Also building a silly straw mans argument with soda. Studies pretty convincing show that the more planning it takes the less likely it is to happen. This seems like a good suggestion and compromise from the original author. Who needs to buy more guns at once and isnt willing to wait?
5. Who did it might have been solved but not where the guns came from. That is part of solving the crime. Although I would not trust someone just basing it on his memory with no evidence to back it up. (like all of his points)
6.They do work. Politicians are opposed to them as are gun companies and lobbyist. Again he makes claims with no evidence. They could work and they would help in mass shootings and more importantly they would help a lot in gun deaths such as suicide and homicide. If police could turn off bad guys guns that would be effective. Even if the owner was the only one with control it would help and it would make it easier to track guns. There has been data on smart guns that is very promising. I would like to see his evidence of it not working.
7. He is focusing on mass shootings again even though that is a small part of gun deaths. This would have prevented at least 1 mass shooting I can think of off the top of my head so probably more. This would greatly reduce other gun deaths. He makes another claim with no evidence which is not true. There has been a lot of links to gun ownership and suicide. There is also evidence of more suicides in states with more guns, Australia suicide levels decreased by 70% with the ban of guns and lots and lots of more data. Its people like this spewing out garbage claims that make this debate more difficult because people believe him, and its harder to prove wrong later once people have been show false evidence.
8. He focuses on one part of the argument and runs with it making another crappy straw mans argument. But again he makes a claim with no proof that is unlikely to be true. Researching would be helpful. It makes him sound very ignorant to claim otherwise.

Overall a garbage piece presented here. Despite agreeing with a couple of his points he makes no attempt to actually argue with good points and just throws out crap and claims it as true. He mostly just creates strawman arguments and provides 0 data. This is the type of article and information going around that is very hurtful to everyone that reads it. This guy should be ashamed of this piece. There was plenty to critic with the original article but he did nothing to argue against it.
 
In general, a suppressor used by a common person will not help you kill more, or less, people. There is no factual backing to suggest otherwise.

This is what I consider intellectual dishonesty. People taking this line are just defending their party's stance without putting any actual thought into it, or they just want suppressors to be legal so they can have one. The potential for abuse with suppressors far outweighs any benefits. My hell, the actual excuse the right is using here is that gun ranges need them in order not to disturb their neighbors. Quite honestly, **** anybody who is trying to sell that incredible load of BS. Gun ranges have gotten along just fine in this country, and the ones that are located in crowded neighborhoods have no ****ing business being there in the first place.

The push to make suppressors legal makes me embarrassed to be a gun enthusiast, and I can certainly understand why the left thinks we are all a bunch of nut jobs with this kind of rationalization to legalize anything and everything that we ourselves would like to get our hands on.
 
Why get rid of something that hasn't caused an issue?

Guns are still loud with a suppressor. This isn't a movie.

If you are standing next to one, yes you can hear it, but no it isn't nearly as loud. If that's going to be your argument, then why in the hell are they needed?

From a sniper point like in Vegas, your claim is straight BS. From that distance, absolutely ****ing nobody would associate that noise with a gun, if they were able to hear it at all over the music.
 
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