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Lefty thoughts on Paul Ryan?

Your entire thesis is built on the faulty use of cause and effect relationships. Correct me if I am wrong but the main thrust of your rant is that too few people own too much wealth. AS A RESULT, the rest are experiences various economic injustices which can only be rectified by acts of a third party, in this case government. Seems to be a quantum leap in extrapolation.

The main economic argument between the two political movements regarding the use of the buzz word "middle class" is the idea to attempt to close the gap between people like Warren Buffett and the average idiot. The first question to be answered is should it be attempted in the first place. Secondly, is it possible, and thirdly, what is the best way to go about it?

There is a sound argument to be made that the answer to the first two is no, thereby making the third question irrelevant. Even if you buy the redistribution argument fully, tax Buffett more substantially, how are you going to pass through those receipts to the treasury to the middle class? Hence the idiotic logic behind the fallacy that raising rates to some x number on some x individual will automatically improve the "middle class" struggle. Ain't going to happen unless you suddenly make a whole new group of people available for government entitlements.

The average American doesn't have an income problem, he/she has a "money behavior" problem.

Sigh. I knew someone like you would jump to conclussions and just go with the typical Glenn Beck vomit reaction by calling Americans spoiled or excessive spenders and saying that the middle class is a buzz word. I'll define it better in just a few sentences.I don't meant to ignore the morals of living within your means. But I don't believe in wasting America in teach everyone that lesson.

Actually, my thesis is based on simple economics. The cause and effect is that because of huge changes to our tax structure (and other things as well) inequality has increased greatly. Because much more of the wealth is being possessed by such a small minority, the middle class (which, btw, I'm not pulling out of my ***. For argument's sakes, I'll define it as 40 percent above the median income and 40 percent below. Sound fair?

Yes, Americans do have a spending problem, but that's not the root of the problem. We have several villains that we can blame. Americans living beyond their means, Bankers lending to people they shouldn't have, deregulated markets, and legislation that allowed people who couldn't make payments get loans. These are all factors but not the ultimate reason why I believe we need to adopt more "progressive" policies and redistribute wealth than continue with conservative policies and grow the inequality gap.

When the middle class lacks purchasing power (wealth) they react by working more (just look at how much more Americans have worked over the past few decades, more women in the workplace, smaller families, etc) and live off credit. When this dries up, recession/depressions hit. After this, we can either redistribute wealth to jump-start the economy and expand industries or swallow the painful pill of living with a lower standard of living.

Do you really think it a coincidence that the richest 1 percent of Americans peaked in both 1928 and 2007 at 23 percent? The top 10 percent owned 50 percent of the nations wealth at *gasp* the same years, 1928 and 2007. Is it really just a coincidence that just prior to market collapses that wealth became top heavy?

The redistribution of income from the top heavy rich back the spread across all other classes were brought on by new legislation and WWII. In the 30's, the top 1 percent went from owning 23 percent of the wealth to 16 percent. Then to 11-15 percent in the 40's. To 9-11 percent in the 50's. Then to 8 percent in the 60's.

Is it really just a coincidence that the golden economic age of our country was when wealth was most equally distributed? Is it really any coincidence that the darkest economic years of our country have been when wealth has been concentrated in so few hands?

As far as Americans "spending too much" this is hogwash. From 1947 until 1975 personal consumption stayed near 62 percent of the GNP. Prior to 2007, it had increased slightly to 70 percent. Hardly much to jump at.

True, lets not go overboard and kill the incentive to start your own company and get rich. But without demand for products, unemployment will remain (or increase), salaries stagnate, and companies cannot expand. As Keynes said, "measures for redistribution of incomes in a way likely to raise propensity to consume may prove positively favorable to the growth of capital."

As far as the argument that, "well capitalism by nature concentrates wealth into the hands of few" that's only partially true. Capitalists have had the great help of government to help redistribute wealth FROM the middle class/poor classes to the rich. Funny how redistributing wealth to the rich isn't seen as unconstitutional, unethical, or counterproductive like redistributing wealth from the rich. Why is that? Is it perhaps because he who has the gold makes the rules?
the old argument of "higher taxes on the rich hurts the economy while lower taxes helps" is bull. In the 1940's to the late 60's income tax rates for the top 1 percent of Americans ranged from 94-71 percent.
Using Foxnews's logic, the 40's-60's must have been decades of economic slump and hell.
Today, they're at all time lows. Are we experiencing good times economically?

In order to keep the economy moving and a demand on products and services, the majority of Americans need wealth (not just the top 1%). We will either need to redistribute wealth (by any means necessary. I can only think of government redistribution honestly. But ifyou have others please suggest) or accept the fact that America is on the decline and that we'll have to live with less (and a lower standard of living).
 
Sigh. I knew someone like you would jump to conclussions and just go with the typical Glenn Beck vomit reaction by calling Americans spoiled or excessive spenders and saying that the middle class is a buzz word. I'll define it better in just a few sentences.I don't meant to ignore the morals of living within your means. But I don't believe in wasting America in teach everyone that lesson.

Actually, my thesis is based on simple economics. The cause and effect is that because of huge changes to our tax structure (and other things as well) inequality has increased greatly. Because much more of the wealth is being possessed by such a small minority, the middle class (which, btw, I'm not pulling out of my ***. For argument's sakes, I'll define it as 40 percent above the median income and 40 percent below. Sound fair?

Yes, Americans do have a spending problem, but that's not the root of the problem. We have several villains that we can blame. Americans living beyond their means, Bankers lending to people they shouldn't have, deregulated markets, and legislation that allowed people who couldn't make payments get loans. These are all factors but not the ultimate reason why I believe we need to adopt more "progressive" policies and redistribute wealth than continue with conservative policies and grow the inequality gap.

When the middle class lacks purchasing power (wealth) they react by working more (just look at how much more Americans have worked over the past few decades, more women in the workplace, smaller families, etc) and live off credit. When this dries up, recession/depressions hit. After this, we can either redistribute wealth to jump-start the economy and expand industries or swallow the painful pill of living with a lower standard of living.

Do you really think it a coincidence that the richest 1 percent of Americans peaked in both 1928 and 2007 at 23 percent? The top 10 percent owned 50 percent of the nations wealth at *gasp* the same years, 1928 and 2007. Is it really just a coincidence that just prior to market collapses that wealth became top heavy?

The redistribution of income from the top heavy rich back the spread across all other classes were brought on by new legislation and WWII. In the 30's, the top 1 percent went from owning 23 percent of the wealth to 16 percent. Then to 11-15 percent in the 40's. To 9-11 percent in the 50's. Then to 8 percent in the 60's.

Is it really just a coincidence that the golden economic age of our country was when wealth was most equally distributed? Is it really any coincidence that the darkest economic years of our country have been when wealth has been concentrated in so few hands?

As far as Americans "spending too much" this is hogwash. From 1947 until 1975 personal consumption stayed near 62 percent of the GNP. Prior to 2007, it had increased slightly to 70 percent. Hardly much to jump at.

True, lets not go overboard and kill the incentive to start your own company and get rich. But without demand for products, unemployment will remain (or increase), salaries stagnate, and companies cannot expand. As Keynes said, "measures for redistribution of incomes in a way likely to raise propensity to consume may prove positively favorable to the growth of capital."

As far as the argument that, "well capitalism by nature concentrates wealth into the hands of few" that's only partially true. Capitalists have had the great help of government to help redistribute wealth FROM the middle class/poor classes to the rich. Funny how redistributing wealth to the rich isn't seen as unconstitutional, unethical, or counterproductive like redistributing wealth from the rich. Why is that? Is it perhaps because he who has the gold makes the rules?
the old argument of "higher taxes on the rich hurts the economy while lower taxes helps" is bull. In the 1940's to the late 60's income tax rates for the top 1 percent of Americans ranged from 94-71 percent.
Using Foxnews's logic, the 40's-60's must have been decades of economic slump and hell.
Today, they're at all time lows. Are we experiencing good times economically?

In order to keep the economy moving and a demand on products and services, the majority of Americans need wealth (not just the top 1%). We will either need to redistribute wealth (by any means necessary. I can only think of government redistribution honestly. But ifyou have others please suggest) or accept the fact that America is on the decline and that we'll have to live with less (and a lower standard of living).

I was done reading your response when you admitted you were a Progressive/Socialist. You are one of the reasons our great nation is currently in trouble. You are one of the reasons people were getting loans they had no way of repaying. How about you keep your hands out of my wallet and I will keep my hands out of your wallet?
 
I was done reading your response when you admitted you were a Progressive/Socialist. You are one of the reasons our great nation is currently in trouble. You are one of the reasons people were getting loans they had no way of repaying. How about you keep your hands out of my wallet and I will keep my hands out of your wallet?

lol. When did I admit that?

Even Keynes admitted that the majority of wealth couldn't fall into the hands of the very few.

In your mind, were FDR and Dwight Eisenhower socialists?

I loved your rebuttal. No facts, stats, just let the eyes gloss over and....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IorvWp-FMVQ
 
Sigh. I knew someone like you would jump to conclussions and just go with the typical Glenn Beck vomit reaction by calling Americans spoiled or excessive spenders and saying that the middle class is a buzz word. I'll define it better in just a few sentences.I don't meant to ignore the morals of living within your means. But I don't believe in wasting America in teach everyone that lesson.

Actually, my thesis is based on simple economics. The cause and effect is that because of huge changes to our tax structure (and other things as well) inequality has increased greatly. Because much more of the wealth is being possessed by such a small minority, the middle class (which, btw, I'm not pulling out of my ***. For argument's sakes, I'll define it as 40 percent above the median income and 40 percent below. Sound fair?

Yes, Americans do have a spending problem, but that's not the root of the problem. We have several villains that we can blame. Americans living beyond their means, Bankers lending to people they shouldn't have, deregulated markets, and legislation that allowed people who couldn't make payments get loans. These are all factors but not the ultimate reason why I believe we need to adopt more "progressive" policies and redistribute wealth than continue with conservative policies and grow the inequality gap.

When the middle class lacks purchasing power (wealth) they react by working more (just look at how much more Americans have worked over the past few decades, more women in the workplace, smaller families, etc) and live off credit. When this dries up, recession/depressions hit. After this, we can either redistribute wealth to jump-start the economy and expand industries or swallow the painful pill of living with a lower standard of living.

Do you really think it a coincidence that the richest 1 percent of Americans peaked in both 1928 and 2007 at 23 percent? The top 10 percent owned 50 percent of the nations wealth at *gasp* the same years, 1928 and 2007. Is it really just a coincidence that just prior to market collapses that wealth became top heavy?

The redistribution of income from the top heavy rich back the spread across all other classes were brought on by new legislation and WWII. In the 30's, the top 1 percent went from owning 23 percent of the wealth to 16 percent. Then to 11-15 percent in the 40's. To 9-11 percent in the 50's. Then to 8 percent in the 60's.

Is it really just a coincidence that the golden economic age of our country was when wealth was most equally distributed? Is it really any coincidence that the darkest economic years of our country have been when wealth has been concentrated in so few hands?

As far as Americans "spending too much" this is hogwash. From 1947 until 1975 personal consumption stayed near 62 percent of the GNP. Prior to 2007, it had increased slightly to 70 percent. Hardly much to jump at.

True, lets not go overboard and kill the incentive to start your own company and get rich. But without demand for products, unemployment will remain (or increase), salaries stagnate, and companies cannot expand. As Keynes said, "measures for redistribution of incomes in a way likely to raise propensity to consume may prove positively favorable to the growth of capital."

As far as the argument that, "well capitalism by nature concentrates wealth into the hands of few" that's only partially true. Capitalists have had the great help of government to help redistribute wealth FROM the middle class/poor classes to the rich. Funny how redistributing wealth to the rich isn't seen as unconstitutional, unethical, or counterproductive like redistributing wealth from the rich. Why is that? Is it perhaps because he who has the gold makes the rules?
the old argument of "higher taxes on the rich hurts the economy while lower taxes helps" is bull. In the 1940's to the late 60's income tax rates for the top 1 percent of Americans ranged from 94-71 percent.
Using Foxnews's logic, the 40's-60's must have been decades of economic slump and hell.
Today, they're at all time lows. Are we experiencing good times economically?

In order to keep the economy moving and a demand on products and services, the majority of Americans need wealth (not just the top 1%). We will either need to redistribute wealth (by any means necessary. I can only think of government redistribution honestly. But ifyou have others please suggest) or accept the fact that America is on the decline and that we'll have to live with less (and a lower standard of living).

You will just say you missed the entire point of post. My views are not correlated with the right or Glenn Beck.
 
Thriller,

Have you ever considered that progressive policies are equally the cause of the income gap you so greatly are concerned with? Have you also considered that the income gap is irrelevant? Have you also considered that the middle class lives much better today than 30 years ago? Have you also considered that it is impossible to close the income gap with government programs and even those in the middle class that would benefit under your redistribution system don't support such a system?

Finally, and most importantly has it dawned on you that the smaller income gap you yearn for which has occurred in the past was not a result of higher tax rates?
 
Also Thriller, you have not proposed how to get the increased tax revenues generated by increasing the taxes on the rich from the US Treasury to the middle class. Until you do , you are just simply spouting silly rhetoric.
 
One more comment.


We are currently experiencing the greatest time in American and World history.

In what respect?

Also, Pearl, what's your position on the economy right now? That everything is fine? And what do you think unemployment is at...just curious.
 
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I'll respond once I have a little more time right now I'm running to school. Pearl, please respond to the questions I made in my post. I'll respond to yours later...
 
Sigh. I knew someone like you would jump to conclussions and just go with the typical Glenn Beck vomit reaction by calling Americans spoiled or excessive spenders and saying that the middle class is a buzz word. I'll define it better in just a few sentences.I don't meant to ignore the morals of living within your means. But I don't believe in wasting America in teach everyone that lesson.

Resorting to talking points.

When the middle class lacks purchasing power (wealth) they react by working more

Not all work is equal. I'm not paying a high wage for someone to flip my burger. Working harder and smarter can and does earn higher wages. We have too many burger flippers with no dedication, and wealth distribution protects this. Add value = add income.

Do you really think it a coincidence that the richest 1 percent of Americans peaked in both 1928 and 2007 at 23 percent? The top 10 percent owned 50 percent of the nations wealth at *gasp* the same years, 1928 and 2007. Is it really just a coincidence that just prior to market collapses that wealth became top heavy?

Oversimplification at it's best. Forget the credit bubbles all together, should we? World trade imbalances too? Europe following WWI had nothing to do with 1929 either? Outside political science, the wealth gap had little to do with the great depression. In fact, the 20's was a very prosperous time for most. Why do you think they called it the roaring 20's?

The redistribution of income from the top heavy rich back the spread across all other classes were brought on by new legislation and WWII. In the 30's, the top 1 percent went from owning 23 percent of the wealth to 16 percent. Then to 11-15 percent in the 40's. To 9-11 percent in the 50's. Then to 8 percent in the 60's.

Is it really just a coincidence that the golden economic age of our country was when wealth was most equally distributed? Is it really any coincidence that the darkest economic years of our country have been when wealth has been concentrated in so few hands?

People were extremely poor during the "golden economic age" compared to today's standards. More equality, but having less doesn't sound like utopia to me. Besides, there was a Lewis Turning Point back then. Agrarian labor supply finally dried up which gave labor power to demand higher wages. Giving credit to tax law is silly. Look at Chinese wages rising today. It's a similar situation.

As far as Americans "spending too much" this is hogwash. From 1947 until 1975 personal consumption stayed near 62 percent of the GNP. Prior to 2007, it had increased slightly to 70 percent. Hardly much to jump at.

Says you. Home ownership saw a smaller rise and caused huge imbalances. Your numbers have no context and no value.


the old argument of "higher taxes on the rich hurts the economy while lower taxes helps" is bull. In the 1940's to the late 60's income tax rates for the top 1 percent of Americans ranged from 94-71 percent.
Using Foxnews's logic, the 40's-60's must have been decades of economic slump and hell.
Today, they're at all time lows. Are we experiencing good times economically?

Your argument against lower tax benefits kills your argument for higher tax benefits for the same reasons. Productivity gains have been pretty consistent in spite of tax structure, not because of it. A testament to the American ideal of liberty, maybe?
 
lol. When did I admit that?

Even Keynes admitted that the majority of wealth couldn't fall into the hands of the very few.

In your mind, were FDR and Dwight Eisenhower socialists?

I loved your rebuttal. No facts, stats, just let the eyes gloss over and....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IorvWp-FMVQ

FDR is the great liberal President who ended up prolonging the Great Depression by making Government the answer to everything. WWII finally pulled us out of it. Keynesian economics have really done wonders in the last 2+ years for us haven't they? Again, keep your hand out of my wallet and I will keep mine out of your wallet.
 
These are all factors but not the ultimate reason why I believe we need to adopt more "progressive" policies and redistribute wealth than continue with conservative policies and grow the inequality gap.
Oh and this gave you away. My guess is that one of your progressive professors is pounding this garbage into your head. Think for yourself.
 
FDR is the great liberal President who ended up prolonging the Great Depression by making Government the answer to everything. WWII finally pulled us out of it. Keynesian economics have really done wonders in the last 2+ years for us haven't they? Again, keep your hand out of my wallet and I will keep mine out of your wallet.

Keynesian economics works. It works when the debt is serviced during times of prosperity. Unfortunately that is never done.
 
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