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Lets Hear It For The Second Unit

jazzrule

jazzrule

Well-Known Member
Found this in the SLC Dunk. Good stuff.
•A quick trip to 82games.com tells us that the Watson-Price-Miles-Elson-Fesenko lineup isn't outstanding. However, you don't have to be outstanding to get back into the game. You just have to be better than the guys you are matched up against. And they have been. Check it: the Jazz are a net +23.3 points with Ceejay on the floor; +17.8 with Fes; +8.7 with 'Cisco; +4.3 with Ronnie; and +7.4 with the Earl of Watts on the floor, independently. Would it shock you to know that these are the BEST net values for on the court / off the court for the whole team. Yes, the top 5 guys are the same 5 guys who help us get back into games. It's not rocket science. Or at least, when you attempt to apply rocket science things don't immediately break down (if you put it together in excel, that line up is still supposed to suck, but they do not.)

•You're going to have to scroll down to the #16th 5 man unit in the second chart here to see this group. You know what's cool? They get 68.5% of the potential rebounds that are available when they are on the floor. (2nd only to a line up of Watson-Miles-Evans-Kirilenko-Fesenko that gets 69.0% of all boards) This lineup also manages to be a +15.0% in turn overs. Not too shabby. This group isn't breaking any scoring records, but they are doing what they have to do to help us get in position to win games. My hat is off to them.

After reading the above I have got to hand it to Sloan with his putting 2 point guards and 2 centers on the court with CJ. This wierd line-up really does the job for the Jazz!
 
The Jazz bench is an unusual rag-tag bunch of misfits that create miracles regularly. I still have a tough time figuring out HOW they do it outside of sheer will power.
 
NUMBERICA said:
The Jazz bench is an unusual rag-tag bunch of misfits that create miracles regularly. I still have a tough time figuring out HOW they do it outside of sheer will power.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

If you told me the second unit of Watson, Price, CJ, Elson and Fes were the best second unit we have had in years I would have laughed at you. The line-up doesn't really strike fear in the average person or NBA team; however, they come in and some how, some way, they do the job, and will power is the probably the best way to describe it.
 
Against the Fakers, Watson and Price pushed the ball on every possession, getting better looks with the Fakers scrambling. Defensively, they pressed 94ft which caused the Fakers to have a short shot clock to run their offense. This is vital because it's tough to score when you only have 15 seconds to set up the half-court (2nd-unit) offense. It's really remarkable to have guys who pride themselves on defense.
 
NUMBERICA said:
The Jazz bench is an unusual rag-tag bunch of misfits that create miracles regularly. I still have a tough time figuring out HOW they do it outside of sheer will power.
Click to expand...

I will now refer to them as the "brotherhood of lost dogs," the scrappy guys who stick together, work hard, and get it done.
 
REALLY got to hand it to Sloan for this. In a thousand lineup possibilities I would never have come up with Watson/Price/CJ/Elson/Fes as being a mismatch for other teams. I'm with Numb: I still can't figure out how it's working so well. The energy is obvious, the beef down low prevents us from getting exploited too badly in the size mismatches at the 1 and 2, and there is a quickness factor with two fast guards attacking, but it shouldn't be working this well. I actually get excited when that unit takes the floor.
 
The biggest component of success these guys have is that they're fearless. It doesn't matter who is in front of them. They're going to cause havoc. Loving it.
 
This 2nd-unit is the epitomy of Jerry Sloan's basketball philosophy: play hard and execute.
In alot of ways our bench is reminiscent of the 03-04 team in that - outside of the inconsistent CJ Miles - they really don't have anyone with legitimate talent who would be a top-7 player on most NBA teams, but they're successful because they get good shots in our offense, play aggressive defense, and get easy baskets off TO's.
 
vslice02 said:
This 2nd-unit is the epitomy of Jerry Sloan's basketball philosophy: play hard and execute.
In alot of ways our bench is reminiscent of the 03-04 team in that - outside of the inconsistent CJ Miles - they really don't have anyone with legitimate talent who would be a top-7 player on most NBA teams, but they're successful because they get good shots in our offense, play aggressive defense, and get easy baskets off TO's.
Click to expand...

You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters and I would rep you more if I could.
 
VINYLONE said:
The biggest component of success these guys have is that they're fearless. It doesn't matter who is in front of them. They're going to cause havoc. Loving it.
Click to expand...

It is great to watch them play.
Along with being fearless, they are good.
You can be fearless, and still suck *cough, cough Hoffa cough
 
jazzrule said:
Found this in the SLC Dunk. Good stuff.
•A quick trip to 82games.com tells us that the Watson-Price-Miles-Elson-Fesenko lineup isn't outstanding. However, you don't have to be outstanding to get back into the game. You just have to be better than the guys you are matched up against. And they have been. Check it: the Jazz are a net +23.3 points with Ceejay on the floor; +17.8 with Fes; +8.7 with 'Cisco; +4.3 with Ronnie; and +7.4 with the Earl of Watts on the floor, independently. Would it shock you to know that these are the BEST net values for on the court / off the court for the whole team. Yes, the top 5 guys are the same 5 guys who help us get back into games. It's not rocket science. Or at least, when you attempt to apply rocket science things don't immediately break down (if you put it together in excel, that line up is still supposed to suck, but they do not.)

•You're going to have to scroll down to the #16th 5 man unit in the second chart here to see this group. You know what's cool? They get 68.5% of the potential rebounds that are available when they are on the floor. (2nd only to a line up of Watson-Miles-Evans-Kirilenko-Fesenko that gets 69.0% of all boards) This lineup also manages to be a +15.0% in turn overs. Not too shabby. This group isn't breaking any scoring records, but they are doing what they have to do to help us get in position to win games. My hat is off to them.
Click to expand...
That analysis was probably done on November 21 data. Now you only have to scroll to the #4th 5-man unit (based on minutes). In terms of +/- per minute, the following is the order (from best to worst, among the top 20 most-played lineups):

*Williams-Bell-Miles-Millsap-Fesenko 1.50 [The lineup that I'd like to see more of most, perhaps with AK swapping in for Bell]
*Watson-Williams-Miles-Millsap-Jefferson 1.06
*Williams-Price-Miles-Millsap-Elson 0.85
*Williams-Miles-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson 0.82 [the most effective lineup among the core rotation IMHO]
*Watson-Price-Miles-Elson-Fesenko 0.63 [the much adulated 2nd unit]
*Watson-Miles-Evans-Kirilenko-Fesenko 0.63
*Williams-Bell-Miles-Millsap-Elson 0.62
*Williams-Bell-Miles-Jefferson-Elson 0.57
*Williams-Price-Miles-Millsap-Jefferson 0.47
*Watson-Price-Hayward-Evans-Elson 0.37
*Watson-Price-Miles-Kirilenko-Jefferson 0.34

*Williams-Hayward-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson 0.00
*Williams-Bell-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson -0.07 [The starting lineup, with a NEGATIVE +/-]
*Watson-Price-Miles-Millsap-Fesenko -0.15
*Watson-Price-Miles-Kirilenko-Elson -0.20
*Williams-Bell-Miles-Millsap-Jefferson -0.46
*Williams-Miles-Hayward-Millsap-Jefferson -0.51
*Williams-Bell-Miles-Kirilenko-Jefferson -0.64
*Williams-Bell-Hayward-Millsap-Jefferson -0.65
*Williams-Price-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson -1.01
https://www.82games.com/1011/1011UTA2.HTM


Fesenko has slipped in "Simple Rating" below Elson, probably because KF's scoring has been nearly nonexistent. He still has the 2nd best on-court/off-court value on the team, bested only by CJ, who has seemed to figure things out a bit.
https://www.82games.com/1011/1011UTA.HTM
 
The main thing that has shocked me watching games is the improvement of Ronnie Price with the move to 2. I think this has a lot to do with his athletic ability being greater than his ball management, but also because most second team SG's are not good enough to really take advantage of what would likely be a mismatch normally.

This, along with Watson being absolutely brilliant, Miles at least showing flashes of his potential, and Fes and Elson playing scrappy ball makes for a damn good second unit, one that does not make stupid mistakes, and gets a shocking number of very easy baskets.
 
I feel really happy for Ronnie Price. He's worked his *** off since he joined the Jazz, and he's finally found his niche. Go Ronnie Price.
 
I'll give some credit to Phil Johnson as well. Jazz used the two guard attack before sometime in 2004 I think, when they had Arroyo. Contrary to what haters believe of Sloan's system, it is quite flexible. And the key here is when you execute the system, the whole is usually better than the sum of its parts. That's the beauty of it.And that's what made me a Jazz fan in the first place.

Another underrated aspect is the intangibles that adding veterans like Elson and Watson bring to the team. The best teams in the league have a bunch of veterans on them. We did'nt have that luxury last few years.

Of course all said and done we are still just a couple of losses away from getting more unsolicited coaching 101 lessons from InGamestrategy. He is on a sabbatical right now biding his time.
 
vj_74 said:
I'll give some credit to Phil Johnson as well. Jazz used the two guard attack before sometime in 2004 I think, when they had Arroyo.
Click to expand...
Sloan has long used the two-PG lineup -- as far back as stretches of Stockton-Eisley as I can remember. Or some combination of Arroyo/Lopez/MoWilliams. Or the rather maligned Fisher-Deron combo.
 
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