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Lockout!!!

PKM said:
Players .. Owners .. now, Bentley .. 3 separate and distinct aspects of prima donna.
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That's it, I'm signing the decertify petition.
Except the only other person on it is CJ and he didn't sign his name - everyone else did.
 
BENTLEY said:
That's it, I'm signing the decertify petition.
Except the only other person on it is CJ and he didn't sign his name - everyone else did.
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I'm in. If the $ decreases, some of the prima donnas will head overseas and the "hoppers" will see they can make more money by pimpin' and selling drugs. That will give a guy like me a chance to make $200K sitting on the end of the bench. I may not be great, but I guarantee a "Rudy-like" effort in getting the team ready for the next opponent and I won't complain about playing time.
 
BENTLEY said:
I am concerned with competitive balance though and so the luxury tax issues are important to me. But I don't like them either - the principle is the same ie: rich markets can spend more than small markets. Making the taxes even more exorbitant doesn't necessarily make them a deterrent. Not for rich markets that can afford to throw money away. It just makes it so the small markets have to stay locked up under the salary cap. If you really want competitive balance then make it a hard cap. I hate the luxury tax.
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I see two possible benefits from the proposed system. If the rich teams are not deterred from going into the tax, that means more money going to the teams under the tax. Utah is never going to be a team that pays the tax frequently, but more money on a regular basis means a better chance the Miller's might be willing to pay it on occasion.

Secondly, If the rich ARE deterred somewhat from going into tax, it should help spread talent around more evenly.
 
Hey, I love this idea the owners came up with! "Once NBA players digest all the details of the owners' new contract proposal -- including a clause that opens a way for more player demotions to the D-League -- it's hard to imagine even those desperate to play would be willing to ratify it, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher." The clause would give teams the right to send a player down to the NBA Development League at any time during his first five years, paying him a reduced contract while he's there, a source who has examined the proposal told Bucher.

I'm all for that! Heck, half the NBA clowns should be playing in the AND1 League to begin with! They prefer to travel, palm, go one on one, play no defense anyway!
 
billyshelby said:
This is a good question. My assumption has been that players are returned their escrow losses and cut equal checks for overages in BRI. That would help the low guys, be insignificant to the high guys, and mostly hurt the middle class. In that scenario, the middle class would be getting checks for the profitability of the league that would be under what they could have formerly signed for under the previous agreement.

If payouts are a percentage of salary, ie. Lebron gets a bigger check than Sundiata Gaines, then I'm as confused as you.
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Again, the players (that is, the superstars and their agents) are so hung up on this because it makes contracts--especially big-ticket contracts--easier to sign, facilitating highly-paid and overpaid players (or their agents) to get deals done, especially with those wealthy teams that tend to be in attractive cities. In other words, a loose LT makes some players get a larger percent of the 50 percent (50-50) in places that they want to play.

It is also a sign that this process is being driven by the superstars and their greedy but equally self-destroying agents, not the more numerous journeymen who could have approved this CBA offer by now if the league representatives had been explaining it to them logically. This union has an offer in front of them and can get a deal done, but if they drag their feet, then the owners might push not only break-even profitability (which this CBA approximates) but also a significantly positive return on their business (which an even more aggressive or draconian CBA--or a reconstructed post-decertification league--would more likely produce).
 
carolinajazz said:
...or themselves, for that matter! They don't seem to realize that a missed check cannot be made up again. And the longer they hold out the more checks they miss....never to be recovered. Plus, there basketball clock is ticking away.....they ain't gettin any younger, that's for sure!
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and you're not getting any smarter either...

there, they're, their CJ, don't get your panties in a bunch.
 
I'm hearing reports that the players are going to reject the deal. They are in a situation in which they may not like the offer, but it's probably the best one that they will receive. Just accept it, already. A 72 game season doesn't sound bad at all, and considering how everything has gone, that would be a great result. This is the most excited that I've been about the team in a long time. Regardless of the competitiveness of the team this year, I already am a big fan of our current roster and love the potential. With a little experience this team is not far away, especially with teams such as the Lakers, Mavs, Spurs, etc. getting old. Sadly, I have no faith in the players accepting the deal, due to the arrogance of the star player reps.
 
LilStocktonSyndrome said:
I'm hearing reports that the players are going to reject the deal. They are in a situation in which they may not like the offer, but it's probably the best one that they will receive. Just accept it, already. A 72 game season doesn't sound bad at all, and considering how everything has gone, that would be a great result. This is the most excited that I've been about the team in a long time. Regardless of the competitiveness of the team this year, I already am a big fan of our current roster and love the potential. With a little experience this team is not far away, especially with teams such as the Lakers, Mavs, Spurs, etc. getting old. Sadly, I have no faith in the players accepting the deal, due to the arrogance of the star player reps.
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Which is the worst possible outcome for the Jazz. As has been stated by another, we don't have a pick if the current solution being discussed about the draft is used. We also lose out on a year of developing our young players.
 
"In life and society there are three classes: There's the upper class, the middle class and lower class," Terry said. "And what the owners are trying to do right now, what their proposal is, get rid of the middle class so you have one or two guys on each team making 'X' and the rest of the guys crunched down at a smaller number and then no middle ground."

-Jason Terry

If this is truly the mindset of the players why doesn't the NBA propose revenue sharing between players? If Jason Terry, LeBron, Wade, and others are so concerned about the middle-class, let's get the NBAPA on-board for revenue sharing between themselves just like they suggest for the owners.
 
David Stern is claiming that if the union does opt for decertification, that all current NBA contracts will become null and void. Does anyone with a legal background have any further information on this? My guess is that it's just another one of David's scare tactics, but what do I know.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216504/Stern_Says_Decertification_Would_Void_All_Player_Contracts

If they did all become void, how would the NBA handle that? Everyone becomes a free agent? League wide mega-draft?

By the way, why does spell checker on this site keep telling me that I'm spelling decertification wrong? Am I? Is it even a word?
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
David Stern is claiming that if the union does opt for decertification, that all current NBA contracts will become null and void. Does anyone with a legal background have any further information on this? My guess is that it's just another one of David's scare tactics, but what do I know.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216504/Stern_Says_Decertification_Would_Void_All_Player_Contracts

If they did all become void, how would the NBA handle that? Everyone becomes a free agent? League wide mega-draft?

By the way, why does spell checker on this site keep telling me that I'm spelling decertification wrong? Am I? Is it even a word?
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I'm no legal expert, but I've followed this thing quite closely. From what I've gathered, Stern saying that all contracts will be void in the wake of the NBPA decertifying is just like the players claiming that the owners will have to pay treble damages. Both are possibilities, but most legal analysts believe that neither will be the outcome to decertification. They're both the worst-case scenarios for the opposite party, so those are the threats being lobbed out right now. I'm calling it right now, the players will either accept this deal or one that is very similar to it by Wednesday. They'll make one last push to get 1-3 concessions and then they'll take whatever deal the owners have on the table by Wednesday.
 
https://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2011/11/nba-lockout-update-splits-systems-ultimatums-and-deadlines/

from a Cavs blog but he voices my own concerns so I provided the link.

I’ve long said that the split of Basketball Related Income means precious little to me, as an observer and admirer of the game of basketball. 57% to the players, as the previous agreement mandated, was probably excessive. Dropping it to 47% for the players is equally preposterous. Beyond that, I don’t really care if the deal is made at 50% or 52% or somewhere in the middle (how hard is it to just say 51% and be done with this?).

For me, and for any like minded fans of NBA teams in small market, “fly over” cities, this fight was supposed to be about a systematic change to the way all teams can stay competitive.

You see, the NBA has this conundrum. One player makes such a huge difference in the competitive nature of a team, that handling the distribution of talent is a unique challenge. Typically, the draft system is sports is there to give the worst teams the best chance to improve.

While this is true in basketball, it doesn’t necessarily work out that way. Because one player makes such a huge difference, having the #1 pick in the NBA draft is more important than in any other sport. To counteract attempts at self sabotage to intentionally get the first pick, the NBA implemented the draft lottery.

Of course, the problem now is that the worst team in the NBA doesn’t always get the first pick and thus the best chance to improve. In fact, the worst team could potentially end up with the #4 pick. That might not sound like a big deal, but it’s the difference between getting John Wall and getting Wesley Johnson. It’s the difference between Blake Griffing and Tyreke Evans, between Dwight Howard and Shaun Livingston, between Greg Oden and Mike Conley (oh wait, that last one doesn’t work quite as well).

The point is, basketball is unique in its inherent need to supplement competitive balance between all 30 teams through methods beyond just the draft. The soft cap, with its Bird Rights and Mid-Level Exception were once meant to be that system. And for a while it worked. Until suddenly the players realized they could manipulate it. They could force teams to trade them using sign and trades to create what we now know as “super teams”. Suddenly, the mid-level exception stood as a great way for a team to exceed the cap and acquire a bunch of superstars and then use the MLE to entice solid veteran role players to come chase a ring with them.

This practice is so new that we can’t possibly know the long term effects. The Dallas Mavericks built their team through the soft cap’s intended method to beat one of these super teams for an NBA title. The Oklahoma City Thunder struck lottery gold for 3 straight seasons to build a competitive young team. But the Boston Celtics won an NBA Championship with their super team. The Knicks are in the process of building their super star team. The Lakers would be a prime suspect to follow suit.

The point is, to a lot of fans of basketball as whole and not just the pooling of elite talent to a select few teams, the trend didn’t sit well. And supposedly for owners of these smaller market teams, an enormous red flag went off in their heads as well. So the hope for us here in Cleveland and places like it was that the owners were going to fight the good fight and bring back some balance into the equation.

Now, I’m not so sure that’s what’s going on. If the systematic issues were what’s important, why not give the players 51% and be done with this nonsense? The players have reportedly told union rep Derek Fisher that he can accept 50% if the owners give on the systems side. If that’s the case, would the players trade those issues for 52% or even maybe 51%?

Something fishy is going on, though. NBA commissioner David Stern has given the players until Wednesday to accept their current offer. That current offer gives the players anywhere from 49% to 51% of BRI, depending on how much money the league makes. Beyond that, the systematic changes would include stiffer penalties for exceeding the luxury tax threshold, a modified Mid-Level Exception, and possibly the elimination of the sign-and-trade for players with Bird Rights.

The players have already rejected this proposal and have asked to negotiate on Wednesday, but the NBA owners said they will not negotiate. It’s either take the deal, or the owners go back to 47% on BRI and back to a hard cap proposal on the systematic side. Now the players are threatening to decertify the union and the players’ lead counsel Jeffrey Kessler is likening the owners to plantation owners (an over the top offensive and outrageous accusation, and also one of the dumbest things a supposedly smart person has ever said).

In an article over the weekend from AP writer Brian Mahoney, you can see how far apart this divide really is. Mahoney writes:

Other items in the new owners’ proposal related to rules for teams paying the luxury tax and for the use of the midlevel exception. Players have said the system issues are just as important as the BRI split, because they fear owners’ proposals essentially would prevent teams in the biggest markets from being free agent options.

See, this is where the players have it all wrong. It’s not that the biggest markets would not be free agent options, they just wouldn’t be any better or worse of an option than a market in Cleveland or Memphis or New Orleans or Detroit or any other small to medium sized markets.

The players seem to be fighting for one thing, and the owners for another. As I’ve maintained all along, I will stand firmly in support of the owners as long as the continue to fight for changes to the system that will help support all 30 NBA teams, not just the select few. If this is really a fight over BRI split, though, I will no longer have a dog in this fight and I don’t really care what happens.
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AlaskanAssassin said:
David Stern is claiming that if the union does opt for decertification, that all current NBA contracts will become null and void. Does anyone with a legal background have any further information on this? My guess is that it's just another one of David's scare tactics, but what do I know.
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...that would be FANTASTIC! Bring ALL those fat cats down off that hill! With no contracts and a hard salary cap...even clowns like Kobe would be making way less money than they are now! If the players have even half a brain they'd better take this last offer.....or there lives will never be the same!

"David Stern said Friday that he understands that the players may want to use decertification of the union to strengthen their bargaining position. But he reiterated that the owners have moved as far as they are willing to go, and that decertification carries severe consequences.

"If the union is not in existence, neither are $4 billion worth of guaranteed contracts that were entered into on the condition that there is a union," Stern said in a television interview on ESPN.

Stern issued a warning to the agents who are pushing the decertification movement.

"So if the agents insist upon playing with fire, my guess is that they would get themselves burned," Stern said.



Read more: https://basketball.realgm.com/wiret...Would_Void_All_Player_Contracts#ixzz1dWnsjjcv
 
A source tells Shaun Powell that if given the opportunity, the union's full membership of players would vote to approve the NBA's revised proposal.

"Source told me if full membership votes on the owner's deal, NBA would open for business by Wednesday," Powell writes.

"This the best deal the owners will extend, everyone understands that," said the source.

Powell cites a "silent majority" of rank-and-file players who want to get back on the court and are uninterested in the decertification process or further negotiations with the owners.
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Read more: https://basketball.realgm.com/wiret..._Approve_Owners_Latest_Proposal#ixzz1dWtZwTZX
 
Maybe I am wrong but holy ****. What more do we expect the players to give. They have already dropped from 57 to 50 %. What more should they do? Give on every systems issue? The Players really need a publicist. They should be screaming about how unfair the owners are in that they have already taken 7 % or over a billion dollars and now they want to squeeze the mid level players out?
 
GoJazz said:
Maybe I am wrong but holy ****. What more do we expect the players to give. They have already dropped from 57 to 50 %. What more should they do? Give on every systems issue?
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....what MOST NBA players should do is give back all that money they stoled from the previous CBA....sign this one lickidee split....be happy they're still drastically overpaid for what they actually do.....and then start scrapping off all those disgusting tattoo's.......with a broken beer bottle!
 
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