Longest Thread Ever

[babe]

This is pretty funny from her wikipedia page:

She has said that if elected to Congress, she would “join the Congressional Black Caucus and try to take that thing apart from the inside out” and has described the Democrat-dominated Caucus as characterized by “...demagoguery. They sit there and ignite emotions and ignite racism when there isn’t. They use their positions to instill fear. Hope and change is turned into fear and blame. Fear that everybody is going to lose everything and blaming Congress for everything instead of taking responsibility.

I've heard her say that myself.

The way I read it, her life experience consists of seeing her parents, as immigrants from Haiti, believing in the freedom of America in the sense that this is a land of relative opportunity, and you can solve whatever problems you have by taking responsibility for yourself and working at whatever you can while using good sense about your expenses. Nothing like all the morose despair and dependency our great fascist/socialist intelligentsia/media have worked so assiduously at for over a hundred and fifty years, viewing the blacks as manipulable livestock with purchasable votes for enshrining themselves in political power and piles of payola.

Actually, the view I just laid out is an excellent basic framework for understanding how a racist elitist owning an NBA franchise might view his black players, as well as his sexual consorts of color.

Still, I don't think the media really thought that all through in the recent flap. Watch how it plays out to be the focus for a new major push on the demoncratic race card ticket for turning every Republican into the exact kind of racists they are. Barry O figures in that world view perfectly, from the standpoint of the really significant "money" figures behind our government.

She does present a challenge to the status quo that I am sure our media will all unite to shut down. Look for some kind of massive take down on her.

 

[PearlWatson]

Some interesting posts got lost in the Darwin thread:

In a hell that allows for redemption, I would accept redemption if I thought it were handled morally.

Please explain.

 

[babe]

Some interesting posts got lost in the Darwin thread:



Please explain.

I hope OB will answer this his own way, but I sorta get the idea, I think.

OB has worked out his own formula or set of standards for what he regards as moral. Basically, he has set a bar for God to jump to meet his standards.

I approach the problem in much the same way, except I figure God has set the bar, and I'm the jumper.

To a lot of Christians, that may seem to be a denial of Christ's atonement and redemptive power, especially as they sing a hymn like "Just As I Am, I Come", with the idea that nobody can be good enough without the forgiveness and advocacy and indwelling of Jesus.. . . the "we have all sinned" doctrine, which I see as valid in my own way. For Christians sometimes, the bar may be that simple confession of faith, but I notice even the most devout advocates of this doctrine so recognise that Christ's indwelling more or less means a transformation of what we are and a process of sanctification that brings us closer to being what God is.

I see nothing wrong with making a good effort so far as I can, while recognizing, with a good sense of humor about it all, just how far I am from what I should/could be.

I like Brigham Young's retort to some Mormon critics who were saying we're all going to go to Hell and suffer that Hell fire and torment:

"That may be so, but when we get there we'll irrigate the place and make a garden of it."

That might not be the exact words, but is the sense of it. . . .

The Dixie Cotton Mission, where my family was sent, was known as a particularly good example of that kind of Hell.

 

[One Brow]

Please explain.

OB has worked out his own formula or set of standards for what he regards as moral. Basically, he has set a bar for God to jump to meet his standards.

I approach the problem in much the same way, except I figure God has set the bar, and I'm the jumper.

The notion of being "jumper" means that I would expect one of us to change. I would not expect God to change for me, nor would I plan on changing for God. However, I do have standards that I think are required for a certain degree of fairness and justice, and I would not want the eternal company of a being I perceived as unfair and unjust.

 

[babe]

The notion of being "jumper" means that I would expect one of us to change. I would not expect God to change for me, nor would I plan on changing for God. However, I do have standards that I think are required for a certain degree of fairness and justice, and I would not want the eternal company of a being I perceived as unfair and unjust.

Funny thing, I suppose. I am not sure God feels any differently.

 

[PearlWatson]

Brow never bothered to answer my question.

I guess I'll ask a different one to babe.

You think those who reject Christ's redemption won't have any consequences beyond regret at the opportunities they missed in life?

 

[babe]

For sure, Chrst said, many times and in many places and situations that we are what we choose to be or make of ourselves in this life, and there are consequences of an eternal nature, and even stated that our life's end is a closing door to our choice.

Mornons just don't beleive it . . . . . is just that final.

There is some further choice, but it will be a more limited and a more difficult one.

It seems that the question of the day is whether we care to love a God on faith, while we are "away" from His immediate presence, at least to ordinary appearances. Who wouldn't love the almighty and all-virtuous Father while he is beaming at his kids. Mormons believe that those who don't have a fair chance, or a meaningful opportunity in this life to understand enough to make that choice,will have that chance and that choice sometime before the judgement day.

Folks who mess up a fair chance may need to make up for lost time, but even that chance is time sensitive, and signicantly impaired after the final judgement

 

[One Brow]

Please explain.

I'll try a better explanation. Part of the problem is that there are so many variables that's it's difficult to give a complete picture.

However, one facet would be the preservation of your nature. Some people describe heaven as eternally adoring the true beauty of God, but that would bore me fairly quickly. If that's a requirement to be in heaven, I would have to deny who I am to to be redeemed. That would be immoral.

 

[babe]

I'll try a better explanation. Part of the problem is that there are so many variables that's it's difficult to give a complete picture.

However, one facet would be the preservation of your nature. Some people describe heaven as eternally adoring the true beauty of God, but that would bore me fairly quickly. If that's a requirement to be in heaven, I would have to deny who I am to to be redeemed. That would be immoral.

I would expect even those basic God-loving morons who imagine that is what eternity is for will get bored after a short while, and start asking about what else there is to do.

I expect there is a lot to do, for all kinds of talents.

Probably a whole lot of geneticists working on "getting the bugs out" of the designed, intelligent, and ever-evolving forms of life. . . . .

 

[babe]

Well, OB didn't answer this one.

Most Christians accept the idea of an almighty God who can do "miracles" far beyond our abilities or comprehension. . .. quibbling about God's methodology seems to them to detract from the awesomeness of God. Mormonism, traditionally, has sought to rationally "close the gap", so to speak. . . . imagining or believing people can do more, and imagining or believing God is more like us. It can seem to be a sort of "blasphemy", I suppose, to some. . . . .

 

[One Brow]

Well, OB didn't answer this one.

I thought it was an interesting take on the issue, but didn't particularly agree nor disagree.

 

[babe]

I thought it was an interesting take on the issue, but didn't particularly agree nor disagree.

I have been leading you into new territory, I think.

Knowing how you feel about experts and the wonders of modern science making "a better day" for the world, and supposing you embrace the wondrous benefits of government run by the very best of intellects.........

and also knowing as I do that the Mormons began as "socialists" and expansive advocates of mankind's destiny embracing, generally, science and elitism of the highest rank. . . . though taken back, as some might term it, with fundamentalist retrenchments in the old line theologies in hopes of appearing acceptably "religious". . . .

and knowing that todays LDS leaders are solidly on the progressive bandwagon despite all pretensions to the contrary, doing a sort of dance with the devil, while trying to appear. . .. or perhaps earnestly believing they actually are. . . sufficiently traditional that people will think they truly are rooted in bedrock truth. . . . .

The idea of a God that resembles, say, the finest and most admiring take, on David Rockefeller or maybe even Prince Philip. . .. or perhaps another even more influential advocate of an enlightened globalism. Yep, Mormons are on that bandwagon where, like the Grand Inquisitor of medieval times as portrayed in Solzhenitsyn's story. . .. we are perfecting the work of Christ.

For the good of all mankind, mind you.

 

[One Brow]

I have been leading you into new territory, I think.

Everyone does. The minds of people exhibit wondrous variety.

 

[babe]

Consciousness: What is it?

I know "anecdotal" is considered an indictment of sorts, but unless we accept evidence like this, we live in a logically-closed loop:

https://www.facebook.com/Anita.Moorjani

Here is a woman with a story that transcends every "religious" line of belief. . . . says her cancer was healed as a result of a decision, a choice, made while in a coma. The story involves her near-death experience while in a hospital, during which she was able to view her body from above and hear the things being said about her in another room, and to see her brother in India making arrangements to fly to Hong Kong, and know he hoped to get there before she died. . . her condition was considered hopeless and doctors expected her to die within hours.

After 30 hours she opened her eyes and began telling her family where she had been and relating to them how she knew the admitting doctor and what had been said on her arrival. .. . while she was in a coma. She was kept in the hospital under observation while tests were done which proved negative for cancer, though her diagnosis of cancer had been amply documented by tests before she went into her coma, as her cancer diagnosis had been well-established.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/anit...like-to-die-by-anita-moorjani/733506046694396

 

[Dr. Jones]

I won't change the subject by introducing astral projection into the conversation. Carry on..

 

[babe]

I won't change the subject by introducing astral projection into the conversation. Carry on..

astral projection or even "remote viewing" would probably be something different from the claimed "awareness" state in the links, not to say I know anything about either of the three, exactly. just saying, if it is true that you are just "filling in" or "connecting the dots" of the linked story, I think you need to look at the story and maybe explain your terminology. The story's first hand person is someone who could probably define the difference between "astral projection" and her sense of what it was, for her.

"consciousness" in my view is rooted in our nature, a nature which transcends our physical or mortal "coil" somehow. "astral projection" would,in my view, probably be something like "remote viewing", which I think is hokey fantasy stuff. I dunno. Maybe I look up some information on the "hokey fantasy stuff" to see if what I think is "accurate".

suggesting maybe read the link I cited before you pin a label on it, too.

the reason I liked the story is because it correlates with my own experience in life.

 

[Dr. Jones]

astral projection or even "remote viewing" would probably be something different from the claimed "awareness" state in the links, not to say I know anything about either of the three, exactly. just saying, if it is true that you are just "filling in" or "connecting the dots" of the linked story, I think you need to look at the story and maybe explain your terminology. The story's first hand person is someone who could probably define the difference between "astral projection" and her sense of what it was, for her.

"consciousness" in my view is rooted in our nature, a nature which transcends our physical or mortal "coil" somehow. "astral projection" would,in my view, probably be something like "remote viewing", which I think is hokey fantasy stuff. I dunno. Maybe I look up some information on the "hokey fantasy stuff" to see if what I think is "accurate".

suggesting maybe read the link I cited before you pin a label on it, too.

the reason I liked the story is because it correlates with my own experience in life.

I am VERY well versed/experienced in astral projection. Successfully practiced it before it started taking control of me and I prayed it off of me. It is very real is all I was trying not to say.

 

[babe]

I am VERY well versed/experienced in astral projection. Successfully practiced it before it started taking control of me and I prayed it off of me. It is very real is all I was trying not to say.

OK, I would probably agree with you that there are evil, as well as good, issues or realities that "transcend" our ordinary "consciousness" if we define "consciousness" as something that is a tightly-nested personal exercise of our own inherent capacities on a "plane" defined by the physical laws science might explore objectively. . . . the kind of science One Brow would consider valid. . . .

Scripturally-speaking, Satan took Jesus up to a high place and showed Him all the kingdoms of this world, and even offered these kingdoms to Him, on condition that Jesus would worship him (Lucifer, Satan, the devil, or whoever was exhibiting those demonstrated powers of projection). Good you prayed off the evil in your case.

And how would I "know" it was "evil"? I judge by the statement you made about "it started taking control of me" and by the statement "(you) successfully practiced it", which means it was not based on a godly attitude as Jesus exemplified, in refusing to take glory to himself by rather acknowledging His Father in all things. The whole idea of submission/humility in saying "there is none good but God".

 

[Dr. Jones]

OK, I would probably agree with you that there are evil, as well as good, issues or realities that "transcend" our ordinary "consciousness" if we define "consciousness" as something that is a tightly-nested personal exercise of our own inherent capacities on a "plane" defined by the physical laws science might explore objectively. . . . the kind of science One Brow would consider valid. . . .

Scripturally-speaking, Satan took Jesus up to a high place and showed Him all the kingdoms of this world, and even offered these kingdoms to Him, on condition that Jesus would worship him (Lucifer, Satan, the devil, or whoever was exhibiting those demonstrated powers of projection). Good you prayed off the evil in your case.

And how would I "know" it was "evil"? I judge by the statement you made about "it started taking control of me" and by the statement "(you) successfully practiced it", which means it was not based on a godly attitude as Jesus exemplified, in refusing to take glory to himself by rather acknowledging His Father in all things. The whole idea of submission/humility in saying "there is none good but God".

Multiple times I had validated that I was visiting another place (by whatever means astral projection makes it a reality).
I did it for years and learned how to do it at will. Then, almost suddenly, I would "leave my body" and being aware of the fact, couldn't get back into my body. I could see myself. I was completely awake and asleep at the same time. My breathing would become labored to almost suffocation. I was trying to wake myself up. I had a live in gf at the time that I would try to muffle just enough audible sound just begging her to shake me awake. It became very scary and came to happen every single night.

I had no idea what was going on. I began asking for help... as much as I knew it would sound totally nuts.
An old Christian guy told me how to pray and ask God to intervene. I did as was instructed and it was the last time it happened to me.
So do I think there was an evil element? Yes. I do believe God could use it for good (and has through others) but to date He has never led me to that cause.

I have a truly incredible story about another guy I know and how it ended for him.. for another time.

 

[babe]

Multiple times I had validated that I was visiting another place (by whatever means astral projection makes it a reality).
I did it for years and learned how to do it at will. Then, almost suddenly, I would "leave my body" and being aware of the fact, couldn't get back into my body. I could see myself. I was completely awake and asleep at the same time. My breathing would become labored to almost suffocation. I was trying to wake myself up. I had a live in gf at the time that I would try to muffle just enough audible sound just begging her to shake me awake. It became very scary and came to happen every single night.

I had no idea what was going on. I began asking for help... as much as I knew it would sound totally nuts.
An old Christian guy told me how to pray and ask God to intervene. I did as was instructed and it was the last time it happened to me.
So do I think there was an evil element? Yes. I do believe God could use it for good (and has through others) but to date He has never led me to that cause.

I have a truly incredible story about another guy I know and how it ended for him.. for another time.

In my own opinion, your prayer was heard and answered, as it represented your will and you needed the help, and only God could so intervene. You initially invited an evil entity/influence in, and sorta got hooked on the idea of your own willful way in doing something that required some (evil) assistance but you were sorta being deceived and flattered about how great you were. . . .

So I looked up a link on astral projection, as some have undertaken to be experts on the subject and "practice it". Here is one:

https://www.erinpavlina.com/blog/2006/12/the-dangers-of-astral-projection/

I link this in connection with the links to the story above, with the critical observation that in the case of the first story, I did not observe any attempt to "practice" anything, though I did observe that the context left "God" specifically out of it, and the person conveyed the idea of a reality that specifically did not glorify God, exactly. It's just a statement of what happened as she relates it.

In my opinion, anyone who dabbles in "practice" of this kind is necessarily invoking or conjuring evil as specifically prohibited in the Old Testament, in the command to not seek to speak to the dead, or do soothsaying, witchcraft, or anything like it. It violates the first commandment in a fundamental way. . . .

Is there a "further dimension" to existence? I don't doubt it, but choose to leave it in the hands of God.

Have I "sensed" the presence of specific persons who had already died? yes. Do people have a "core" identity that is not just a mortal body, and does that "core identity" have the power to see, to know the thoughts of others, or their concerns, and to move to other places in an instant? I would suppose so.

If someone told me a story about being able to float themselves around "at will", I would suppose that an entity of some evil nature was behind it, as I would judge it as a demonstration that is self-glorifying, and not subject to God in the manner exemplified by Jesus.

I have no way to verify the facts of the story I cited, but the claim is that there are multiple "proofs" in the story with people who were present and knew the order of events, and could confirm the statements made by the supposedly comatose patient when she "awoke", and in the medical facts of the cancer and it's cure.

Can God heal a person in this manner? It would not be inconsistent with many of the stories of the New Testament healings attributed to Jesus.

One thing I did respond to positively, in her story, is the notion that we do undermine our health with a lot of our "negative" emotional baggage.