I grew up in St. George, Utah.
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I grew up in St. George, Utah.
My school classes were full of kids from polygamous families, some "Still In", some "Finally Out", with every shade of difference along the way. As a first grader, I made a judgment, and rejected "those people" as ungodly. Not necessarily the idea, but those people. I sensed they did not care to advance in modern ways, or education, and felt they were "locked in" to an ideology somehow. No, I didn't know the word "ideology" then, but that's the notion I had.
You should... life is short..
This year I spend a bit of time thinking about what we humans do each and everyday and how much time we waste doing mundane, pointless things... As I get older I definitely have been thinking more and more about what I spend each day doing and a lot of it is just pointless things... like waiting for someone, waiting for food at the restaurant, watering plants, etc...
I would love to be able to do/make/achieved at least 'something' of real value/meaning, something I can be remembered for.
When I worked in a restaurant, I realized all the waitresses were from one of the polygamous families. One really pretty girl my age, in my opinion. One of my cousins dated her, and his parents got worried, and sorta squeezed him out of the idea. Another of my cousins then dated her, and married her. I saw her a while ago, when I was visiting in their home. I don't think many people know the story, and she was uncomfortable because I do know it. So I won't tell it.
Her father was my Little League coach, and I was his newspaper kid and milkman. He made a transition out of the polygamy cult and lived up to his commitments to his wives, and successfully projected a perfectly "normal" demeanor, active in the community. He is my study of how to be a good man. He got his own conscience, and he lived up to it.
Her father was my Little League coach, and I was his newspaper kid and milkman. He made a transition out of the polygamy cult and lived up to his commitments to his wives, and successfully projected a perfectly "normal" demeanor, active in the community. He is my study of how to be a good man. He got his own conscience, and he lived up to it.
My wife needs a lot of help. Not sure she'll live long enough to remember it much. Making the most of my time, somehow, translates into the stuff I do for her and the kids. My little Mary wants to write books, and listens to me. I tell her everything.
A compelling belief in something is bound to push a human being towards sociopathy, because to sustain that belief, and the conscience that goes with it, means you have to let what a lot of other people think, feel, hope for, care about, or consider as your duty to society. . . . just go, somehow. Sociopathy is described as an unusually "unfeeling", "insensitive", or reckless disregard for others. It can be evil, and is generally judged as evil, but it can also be "good".
Was Jesus a sociopath for believing He must die a redemptive death for Mankind? Well, some might say so. But he didn't really want to do it, in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed that it could be passed somehow. But in the end he did it because Someone Else wanted Him to do it. So, rather than being a "sociopath", he was the ultimate extreme opposite of that. He went to that Cross because He cared about others.
Was Jesus a sociopath for believing He must die a redemptive death for Mankind? Well, some might say so. But he didn't really want to do it, in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed that it could be passed somehow. But in the end he did it because Someone Else wanted Him to do it. So, rather than being a "sociopath", he was the ultimate extreme opposite of that. He went to that Cross because He cared about others.
In the last few weeks before that, if you study the life of Jesus, you will see him going to the people who were closest to him in life, and doing things that would be a last gift of service and caring for them. People like Lazarus and his sisters Mary and Martha. And His mother.
Isn't marriage meant to be between two people? How does polygamy fit in all of that?
Well, anyway, back to the problems of troubled people who haven't found a place for others in their lives, or who just view others as objects somehow. Most cases of abuse arise from this general misconception of the world. Examples include cops who join the force because they want to strut a badge, or love authority, or are addicted to power over others. Judges who go for the law for all the wrong reasons. Politicians who somehow "need" the office.
ministers, or other "authority" roles, even teachers, who somehow don't balance themselves out the right way.
ministers, or other "authority" roles, even teachers, who somehow don't balance themselves out the right way.
I dunno. Times change. Used to be, women couldn't sustain themselves in a wilderness like Utah, or maybe even on the frontiers of the Midwest. Could be a gallant offer from a man who could care for more than one, in the survival essentials. The idea still lingers that there are women who need a place to belong, in a family. Mighta been like that in the Bible times. A man who could support a woman and her children was a sight for sore eyes. Other eyes, too.
I knew a gal who lived across the fence from a polygamous family. She had been married to pretty irresponsible fellow who ran up the debts and drank his money away, somehow. She was having trouble feeding her child, and she sorta had a bad notion about the trouble men can be. But she thought there was safety in numbers, and seriously considered climbing over that fence and joining up. After all, how much trouble can a busy man be?
It's pretty common for divorced women on the rocks to turn to polygamous men. Often, they have been abused pretty bad by one man. In such cases, it's not so much of an ideal match as a place with some structured security.
But Biblically though I thought God wanted it to just between 2 people? How does LDS justify it?
I have a friend, a man, who came out of a little polygamy clan. Talk to him sometimes about stuff. He doesn't want anything to do with the LDS now. His wife is a pretty powerful little lady with the wit to manage him pretty close, in some ways. But he is very successful in business, and I help him sometimes with a little technical advice. My friend speculates that Mormonism is a magnet for perverts. . . . uhhhmmm. . . .. sociopaths. . . . that the notion, however misconstrued doctrinally, of being something akin to GOD, draws in those who perversely want power. People inclined to various modes of child abuse and spousal abuse.
So there, I have two friends of this opinion, both highly intelligent, and I'd say pretty decent folks.
So there, I have two friends of this opinion, both highly intelligent, and I'd say pretty decent folks.
Justify what? Taking care of people?
If you're thinking of sexual relations, fine. The Old Testament didn't condemn men who lived up to their obligations, like Boaz in the case of Ruth, who was his second wife. Book of Ruth doesn't say so in just so many words, but it does refer to a principle found in Leviticus, regarding a duty to marry her, even though he was already married. But this topic is sociopathy, not sex.
Most men who would cheat on a marriage are in the frame of mind that it's not a marriage they are looking for. They also don't think they are doing anything great. Some men who do polygamy actually think they are good and great men, and deserve respect, and expect to be respected for their families. In some cases, that might actually be pretty true. In other cases, it might be very untrue. In my judgment, it is untrue when they demand a place in the mind of their followers/wives that is displacing the role of personal conscience, exerting power and other vices or evils rather than virtues in their dealings.
Of course, the standard LDS response would be "We don't do that anymore".
But the practical discussion to be made here is on the plane of social science, more than theology. Sociopathy is a specific term, though it is graded on a range of issues or characteristics. The core concept is a descriptor of a deranged sense of social responsibility. The less you care about others, and the more callously you mistreat them, the more "sociopath" you are. Doing it under a false flag of religion is just one more layer of evil.
So here is a counter example, from a hundred years ago, and more. My great-grandfather had three wives, maybe twenty five children. He was a respected man in Salt Lake City, with a high office in the Church, and a good carpenter and farmer. When one of his wives died, he was at her beside. She asked rather delicately, "Will you miss me?". His took her hand, and said, to be strictly correct on a sensitive subject, "We will miss you". His point was that he was not going to divide his family in principle. He and his wives had a certain shared unity and commitment.
Those folks worked together and went through everything in life together, on equal terms. He made himself a devoted servant to his wives and children. Did not lift himself up, so to speak. He was pretty far from being a sociopath. He was all about doing stuff for other people.
My friend's father, the would-be little polygamy clan leader, was nothing like that. He drew people in with his unique and compelling little doctrinal themes and his claims to authority, revelations, and such. If you came into his little circle, you literally checked your own conscience at the door. He would tell you everything you needed to do.
That's a sociopath.
That's a sociopath.
So, anyway, with Thriller's recent thread, there's an example. People who fundamentally don't make the connection with morality, with personal ethics and principles worth living by, or with "God" as being a representation of Virtue or Truth, have no regard for either their own character or the well-being of others. This is the malady in the mind of folks who think "Priesthood" is some kind of power or authority over others, rather than figuring it for an obligation to serve others somehow.
The LDS offshoot at Colorado City which is today's Warren Jeff's church, went sociopath in the early depression years with a leader named John Y. Barlow, who began doing things his own way, and bragging about it. The LDS offshoot known as the Kingstons made it's start on the same principle at about that time, too. Big Men, with their own way. Knowing a little about a few of them, I could carry on a civil conversation I suppose, but their followers would just wonder who I was to be giving opinions or advice.
My friend from Long Beach, however, is just "being there" for them, with a little of the material necessities of life, giving them a bridge to tomorrow.
The LDS offshoot at Colorado City which is today's Warren Jeff's church, went sociopath in the early depression years with a leader named John Y. Barlow, who began doing things his own way, and bragging about it. The LDS offshoot known as the Kingstons made it's start on the same principle at about that time, too. Big Men, with their own way. Knowing a little about a few of them, I could carry on a civil conversation I suppose, but their followers would just wonder who I was to be giving opinions or advice.
My friend from Long Beach, however, is just "being there" for them, with a little of the material necessities of life, giving them a bridge to tomorrow.
I have had some virtually endless debates with anti-Mormons whose information goes to making out Joseph Smith to be a sociopath. At the end of the day, and the discussion, and at the end of Joseph Smith's life, he wasn't.
His wife Emma, his young love, had issues with polygamy to the end of his life, and did not go with the LDS under Brigham Young west after Joseph was killed. Most Mormons of all kinds will do their level best to paint Emma as an honorable wife, and a good woman. But in the weeks leading up to Joseph's death, she broke confidence and spoke to some of his worst enemies, the men who were trying to discredit Joseph Smith. Now I don't know all she said, but it was reported by one that Emma said she was "tired of all the women" in Joseph's life. His enemies made of mockery of Mormon "secret" polygamy. The press that published it was destroyed by city officials, who termed it a "public nuisance". An aroused public saw it as a violation of free speech by a local mayor, Joseph Smith. Some dispute who gave the orders, but it's no stretch to assign responsibility to the mayor. So Joseph fled across the river, to another state, knowing Nauvoo was busted, and would not be anymore. He spoke of going west, to the Rockies.
His wife sent a message to him: "Come back". Joseph said "If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of no value to me". And he went home to face the issue.
His wife Emma, his young love, had issues with polygamy to the end of his life, and did not go with the LDS under Brigham Young west after Joseph was killed. Most Mormons of all kinds will do their level best to paint Emma as an honorable wife, and a good woman. But in the weeks leading up to Joseph's death, she broke confidence and spoke to some of his worst enemies, the men who were trying to discredit Joseph Smith. Now I don't know all she said, but it was reported by one that Emma said she was "tired of all the women" in Joseph's life. His enemies made of mockery of Mormon "secret" polygamy. The press that published it was destroyed by city officials, who termed it a "public nuisance". An aroused public saw it as a violation of free speech by a local mayor, Joseph Smith. Some dispute who gave the orders, but it's no stretch to assign responsibility to the mayor. So Joseph fled across the river, to another state, knowing Nauvoo was busted, and would not be anymore. He spoke of going west, to the Rockies.
His wife sent a message to him: "Come back". Joseph said "If my life is of no value to my friends, it is of no value to me". And he went home to face the issue.
Joseph Smith whiled the time away, knowing the mob was gathering around his jail and working up the nerve to come get him. With him were his brother Hyrum, Wilford Woodruff and John Taylor. Joseph asked to hear a favorite song, a sort of ballad called "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief", about being willing to help the most useless, despised and misfortunate man you could imagine, even to the extent of giving ones' own life to save the wretch. Not exactly in the sociopath category, I'd say.