Looking for genuine discourse re:Jay-Z/NBA

[Jazz Spazz]

dude, let me promise you something... you're not person3. That's the reason I tried (a few times) to address my question as "serious questions".... they were aimed at everybody. Your position isn't accurately conveyed because I wasn't trying to convey it. Are there some resemblances between your position and person3? Yes.

The whole question of "imported knowledge or values" versus "in situ knowledge or values" is one that is at the very core of my past research. And, I felt it was a decent question to ask since most of the thread was dedicated to people giving general judgments rather than anything personally felt, which I felt was distracting the conversation. And, if someone can point out what is causing distraction, then maybe it can be dealt with. It was an honest attempt at engagement. Perhaps this just isn't my place.

Ok, good to know. By all appearances you were taking what I said and person3 ing me. Even knowing that was not your intent, that's what it appears to be, fyi.
I believe you though. Tough to tell when the sarcasm button is on or off in this place.

I tell you, most of this is both of us think way differently and almost speak different languages, so to speak. honest opinion on the continuous rounds that happen.

I'll go back and give input on the questions later today if I can with this in mind.

 

[One Brow]

Can we agree on the point that no one LIKES to be called a racist? Whether it's latent or not, when you label someone (or their comments) as racist you're going to get a defensive reaction.

Do you have a way of telling people they are racist that does not provoke a defensive reaction? I know many, many people who would love to know about one. Because, if you don't, then avoiding the defensive reaction equates to the racism going unchallenged. Is that your preference?

Judging from the conversation in this thread, every time that gets thrown around the fences go up and the discussion stops. I felt like that was my reaction to your initial posts.

The one who threatened to stop discussion was you.

Agree to disagree then. You are welcome to hold your opinion on the matter. At least now I understand specifically your criticism.

The notion of "agree to disagree" carries with it the idea that both positions are sound, civilized, and worth holding. The notion that "reverse racism" exists is not sound, not civilized, and not worth holding.

I am of the opinion that if we want to slow down racism that all of us need to be accountable with contextual adjustment.

Being accountable requires the presence of one who holds us to account. Who do you have in our life to hold you to account on this issue?

Racist actions from a hateful white person does not, in my opinion, justify racist attitudes from a black person.

Notice that, even in your construction here, the white person makes racist actions as a basic reality (and from what you said earlier, should not be called out on them, lest they get defensive), while the black person needs to justify their racist attitudes. That's quite an interest contrast of standards. Please don't defend yourself on them, rather, ask yourself why you chose that way to word things.

I understand why that would make them angry, but I don't think it should be used as an impetus to perpetuate racism. I don't know if that is a clear explanation of what I think, but it's an attempt.

The anger of black people over racial injustice, and their expressions that derive from it, are not the principal sustenance of racism in this country.

We need to identify our own bias, and work to correct it.

I agree heartily.

 

[One Brow]

What seems to be missing from the conversation here is where we are/should be headed as a society and how to get there. The skeletons in our collective closet should be used to understand our present but our goals and aspirations should be used to shape our standards.

If Jay Z does in fact espouse this nonsense then no I would not equate it with Sterlings remarks but I would be quick to condemn it as crazy stupid and wrong. There is no room in our future for the bigotry of our past imo.

Since heyhey seems to be much more quick to criticize my missing the bigger point than to pointing out what it is, I'll have to guess around.

Perhaps this is his point; that he wants some grand way forward that will rid us of this demon. My response is that each of us is the way forward. When the source of a problem is human cognitive short-cutting, the answer can only be found in subverting the short-cutting, and that can only be one person at a time. Each person needs to accept responsibility for changing his mental tricks, or adapting for them when might be coming into play.

As an instructor in a class room, it's on me to recognize my initial tendency is to treat some students differently based on their appearance, word usage, gender, mannerisms, etc., and that these tendencies are fundamentally unfair. When i am annoyed by a student, it's my job to take a step back and ask if the same behavior would annoy me from a different student. When I am pleased by a student response, the same thing applies.

Are you capable of finding motivation in anything other than guilt or the desire that other people should feel as pathetic as you do?

Here's n interesting notion; that my positions make me feel pathetic. See, I find them empowering. Knowing what you are, and why you are that way, is the best road to personal strength and power. Perhaps heyhey doesn't see how I can find my positions empowering, but that is a lack in his vision, not my take on the issue.

 

[RobDMB]

Do you have a way of telling people they are racist that does not provoke a defensive reaction? I know many, many people who would love to know about one. Because, if you don't, then avoiding the defensive reaction equates to the racism going unchallenged. Is that your preference?

No I do not. But if you're going to make the accusation, perhaps giving it some context might quell the defensive reaction a little. So let's challenge it, but attempt to keep accompanying malice to a minimum.

The one who threatened to stop discussion was you.

And I believe that I acknowledged that in the above post from where you are quoting me now.

The notion of "agree to disagree" carries with it the idea that both positions are sound, civilized, and worth holding. The notion that "reverse racism" exists is not sound, not civilized, and not worth holding.

My use of "agree to disagree" was not in regards to reverse racism.

It was in reference to the "music" comment from earlier in the thread. Kicky has commented that I was latently racist in writing the way I did, whereas I have said that I was simply conveying my dislike of rap. If you knew me, and we were having this conversation face to face, my use of quotation marks would have come through... I think. Again, my dislike of rap has nothing to do with the color of the rapper, but in the songs themselves. Kicky is certainly free to make his conclusion, and I think I can see what he means about the way it was written, but I still contest that my dislike of rap is not a cultural/racial issue.

Being accountable requires the presence of one who holds us to account. Who do you have in our life to hold you to account on this issue?

No one holds me accountable, per se. However I believe that we can hold ourselves accountable to weed out our own racist thoughts and actions. A person with some self-awareness is capable of doing that I think. Consciously trying to be empathetic and fair to your neighbors seems like a good place to start. Then work up from there.

Notice that, even in your construction here, the white person makes racist actions as a basic reality (and from what you said earlier, should not be called out on them, lest they get defensive), while the black person needs to justify their racist attitudes. That's quite an interest contrast of standards. Please don't defend yourself on them, rather, ask yourself why you chose that way to word things.

If I had said it like this: Racist actions from a hateful black person does not, in my opinion, justify racist attitudes from a white person. I believe it would also work that way, but If I say it that way I would be championing reverse racism, wouldn't I? I don't think white people should justify racism by citing racist black people either. Would that have been a better way to say it in your eyes? I am trying to say that racism should not perpetuate racism, no matter the source.

The anger of black people over racial injustice, and their expressions that derive from it, are not the principal sustenance of racism in this country.

Nor did I claim that it was. We have several hundred years of historical context that drives it. I am not trying to blame all of perpetual racism on black people; both sides hold blame for perpetuating it. I understand that the ratio is not equal, I get it.

My question to you is this: If my two sons (ages 6 and 4) are fighting, and have been constantly for several hours, who holds the blame for continuing to fight? I know it's not a perfect analogy, but that is my thought on the subject.

I agree heartily.

Thank you.

 

[One Brow]

It was in reference to the "music" comment from earlier in the thread. Kicky has commented that I was latently racist in writing the way I did, whereas I have said that I was simply conveying my dislike of rap.

To be clear: this one element was not the only, nor even primary, piece of evidence for the conclusion of racist thinking. Taqking this one comment and acting like it was the primary evidence is a distortion.

No one holds me accountable, per se. However I believe that we can hold ourselves accountable to weed out our own racist thoughts and actions. A person with some self-awareness is capable of doing that I think. Consciously trying to be empathetic and fair to your neighbors seems like a good place to start. Then work up from there.

I'll add one more to make it a good start: when you hear someone tell you something is offensive, ask why and listen carefully, without looking to rebut it.

If I had said it like this: Racist actions from a hateful black person does not, in my opinion, justify racist attitudes from a white person. I believe it would also work that way,

If you had said it like that, it might also work that way. The point was, you did not choose to say it like that, and only after reflection did you realize this. That's all I wanted to point out.

Would that have been a better way to say it in your eyes?

People shouldn't use the words of other people to justify their own prejudice.

My question to you is this: If my two sons (ages 6 and 4) are fighting, and have been constantly for several hours, who holds the blame for continuing to fight? I know it's not a perfect analogy, but that is my thought on the subject.

If the ages are 14 and 4, do you hold one in more blame? How about 24 and 4? Again, your first instinct here is to characterize the situations in terms of a nearly equal power balance, when this is not the reality in race relations.

 

[PearlWatson]

Hmm, I wonder if there are any studies on that. The social trend seems to be pointing towards middle skin tones. From what I have seen in my personal experiences at least. I've seen much more mocking of pale skin tones over olive ones. By far.