Mathews signs offer sheet w/Blazers (5 yrs/34 mil)

[Harcher]

I think that during Wes's 'rise to starting-dom' his agent was out sniffing for his worth. It was at that point - end of season and playoffs that Wes had a pretty good idea of his worth. Even the Jazzfanz board had him pegged easily at 4yr, 16M IIRC. So any sort of debate about the Jazz swooping in early with a low offer is unlikely in my opinion.

so what is your view of his max worth?
what is your view of his upside?

I recall seing Raja Bell in playoffs with Sixers and was impressed - I could see a real NBA player. I see the same in Wes. I think 5/25 was easy match for wes for me.

I think Wes is better than brewer, but he's not 2x the player (unfortunately $ and performance and not linear)
So sign brew for 2.5/yr for 2or 3 years and save your money for that elusive free agent star (is having a maximally open bank the most important thing?)
Or
Sign Wes for 7/year for 5 to lock up a pretty good player. (I think he's Raja Bell over that 5 years.)

 

[Hopper]

really why would i wanna be a american.
to rape mexicans?

Well, that alone would probly be sufficient, I spect, eh, Dutch? Mexican BABEZ is HOT!

 

[DutchJazzer]

why would people go offtopic by starting personal attacks?

i just dont get it.


looking for a fight or just a conflict?

 

[Shaggy]

why would people go offtopic by starting personal attacks?

i just dont get it.


looking for a fight or just a conflict?

It real hard understand post when english is over bad.

I could be wrong but the world didn't start learning english at a faster rate until we became a Superpower, eh?

 

[mfree]

Quoting from the SLTrib:

Although his contract is frontloaded, Matthews would only count $5.765 million in luxury-tax calculations. Should they re-sign him, the Jazz would have $64.8 million committed to nine players for this season. The tax threshold is $70.307 million.

Since the contract only counts the mid-level against the cap, I think the chances of the Jazz matching go way up.

I was thinking it counted $9.2m, making it nearly impossible to add another player. With this information, i think the Jazz will match.

 

[DutchJazzer]

It real hard understand post when english is over bad.

I could be wrong but the world didn't start learning english at a faster rate until we became a Superpower, eh?

superpower what superpower.

americas economy is collapsing just like the former soviet union
europe and china are super powers now.

china could swallow usa whole without breaking a sweat usa couldnt even beat vietnam. had problems with iraq and afghnaistan

woouldnt a superpower find bin laden. or WOD.

lol lets continue this in general discusion. where it belongs.

 

[DutchJazzer]

but didnt the jazz only have the midlevel.

so there is only a 1 million something exeption to sign another player

 

[mfree]

but didnt the jazz only have the midlevel.

so there is only a 1 million something exeption to sign another player

I agree, but it does bring the TPE's back into play sooner rather than later.

 

[Borat]

You can't have it BOTH ways, Borat, sorry. On the one hand you're suggesting that IF ONLY the Jazz had offered $25 million (which, by the way, you previously insisted they should not do, so really, you want to have it more than just *two* ways), Matthews would have taken it (because, since we didn't, we "opened up a toxic offer," which opening you presumably claim would have been "closed" if only we had offered $25 million).

In the next breath, you claim to realize that offering $25 million wouldn't have made any difference.

Are you pretending to be that thick? When first report came out, it was that deal was worth $25 mil. Since it was still reasonable, it would have been better for us to negotiate with Wes and agree to this (or better) deal ourselves as opposed to having to match "toxic" (since you seem to have comprehension problems, toxic means heavily front loaded and unfavorable for us, like the one we matched for Millsap) offer sheet. Even you commented at that time that you think Jazz should match that offer. Then later, when reports of 34 mil came out, clearly, things changed, and what we were saying before about 25 mil dollar offer is not necessarily true for 34 mil one. I don't see you screaming we should match the offer, like you did when we thought it was 25 mil. Do you also then "have it both ways"? First you said we should match it, now you are not so sure. So stop pretending that I have it both ways. The only thing that changed is amount of deal, which we thought was 25 at first, but then it turned out to be 34.

As always, your reasoning is incoherent and self-contradictory, and the primary motivation for making the foolish assertions you do appears to merely be a desperate attempt to convince yourself that you are right, and have been all along... People here have repeatedly pointed the flaws in your thinking out to you, but nuthin will deter you. You continue to make an absolute fool out of yourself. As good ole Honest Abe done said once: "Better to keep your sorry mouth shut, and appear a fool, than you open your yap and prove it."

Bravo! Bravo! You have just described someone who can post a topic describing that Deron is "far from unhappy" about what happened to Jazz so far, then being shown article describing exactly the opposite to the point it was titled that Deron was unhappy, and yet he still insists he is right. Congratulations, you have just eloquently described no one, but yourself.

 

[Borat]

really why would i wanna be a american.
to rape mexicans? be all hgh and mighty and call it "patriotism"(nazi means patriotism)

note to you english wasnt "invented" by the smug americans.

maybe i wanna be like the british
or jamaicans for that matter.

But we like Jews.

 

[Jazz4ever]

Quoting from the SLTrib:

Although his contract is frontloaded, Matthews would only count $5.765 million in luxury-tax calculations. Should they re-sign him, the Jazz would have $64.8 million committed to nine players for this season. The tax threshold is $70.307 million.

Since the contract only counts the mid-level against the cap, I think the chances of the Jazz matching go way up.

I was thinking it counted $9.2m, making it nearly impossible to add another player. With this information, i think the Jazz will match.

That makes things interesting I could see the Jazz matching now. There isn't much left on the market with Morrow and Reddick gone. We know Brewer is not the answer, and its questionable if Brewer ever recovered 100% from the injury. Deron likes him though, so could see the Jazz offering him 4-4.5 a year but with a deadline. If Brewer turns it down or gets a better offer, Matthews is matched.

 

[Hitman]

I don't think we can possibly be in luxury tax territory this season. We were barely over the limit last year, have lost Boozer's and Korver's contracts, and only have the MLE and the Bi-Annual Exceptions to spend. After that, everyone else gets signed to rookie scale or minimum contracts.

In fact, here's our current roster and their pay rates, including Matthews if we match:

Andrei Kirilenko $17,823,000
Deron Williams $14,940,153
Mehmet Okur $9,945,000
Paul Millsap $8,308,367
Wesley Matthews $6,452,000
CJ Miles $3,700,000
Gordon Hayward $2,356,320
Ronnie Price $1,381,250
Kosta Koufos $1,298,640
Kyrylo Fesenko $1,087,500
Sundiata Gaines $762,195
Othyus Jeffers $762,195
Jeremy Evans $473,604
TOTAL $69,290,224

Matthews and Millsap actually have a smaller annual salary than shown but their signing bonus is spread over the length of the contract for cap purposes. Matthews' figure is a bit rubbery, as I'm not sure if the bonus is simply divided by the number of years or is spread proportionately with the yearly salary. I used the straight number of years as it will be the larger figure of the two. Also, Fesenko is shown as though he accepts the QO, if he doesn't his replacement on the roster will have to be signed for the minimum salary, which is, at most, $1,352,181 for a 10+ year veteran, or using the Bi-Annual Exception of $2,080,000. So if we subtract Fesenko and insert a BAE player then our cap figure would be $70,282,724.

 

[billyshelby]

The goal is not whether we can squeeze Wes in without paying the tax. The goal is to determine whether it's worth paying all that money to Wes in the first place. Just because I have enough money to buy a rowboat at a yacht's price doesn't mean I should buy the rowboat.

 

[DutchJazzer]

yes it does

what if the rowboat is a priceless antique

 

[write4u]

BS, you never responded to my question about why you think Matthews is not athletic. Seems to me the guy has speed to burn, good quickness, decent hops, and is strong as a bull. Sure, a lot of NBA players could fit that description, but when we're talking non-athletic that isn't a description that fits Matthews. I think of someone like Memo, a big lumbering guy with great skills but little hops or foot speed.

 

[Hopper]

Are you pretending to be that thick? When first report came out, it was that deal was worth $25 mil. Since it was still reasonable, it would have been better for us to negotiate with Wes and agree to this (or better) deal ourselves as opposed to having to match "toxic" offer

Therein lies one of your problems, Borat. You want to rely on, indeed create, if necessary, illusory versions of "reality" to "prove" your points.

The $25 million report was FALSE, get it? But you insist that Matthews would have taken even less if only we had offered it.

Suppose an erroneous report came out that said Matthews would take half a million a year? Same thing, right? We were fools not to match it, since Matthews would obviously feel bound to accept whatever amount was falsely reported to be acceptable in the paper.

Of course your version of reality incorporates the assertion that the Jazz refused to talk to Matthews' agent after free agency started. Anyone who believes, and WANTS to believe, this must have some other agenda.

 

[billyshelby]

BS, you never responded to my question about why you think Matthews is not athletic. Seems to me the guy has speed to burn, good quickness, decent hops, and is strong as a bull. Sure, a lot of NBA players could fit that description, but when we're talking non-athletic that isn't a description that fits Matthews. I think of someone like Memo, a big lumbering guy with great skills but little hops or foot speed.

Why do I need to? Matthews is short, with poor length, and he can't jump. His shot is a modified set shot, not a jumpshot, mostly for that reason. As a consequence, he needs it to be set up for him. He can't just rise up against a defender to shoot. Defensively, those limitations show up against bigger wings no matter how fundamentally sound he is. I don't think he has anything other than average quickness, he just plays hard and has good instincts for the break. He OVERCOMES his athletic limitations through headiness, through intensity. He's tough. He's a crafty player. I love those qualities about him. But how many times last year did you look at the guy Wes was defending and say to yourself, 'Wes is a better athlete than that guy"? Not many if you were being honest. We can disagree that his athleticism is less important relative to how much he can improve, but I find it hard to believe you don't realize that Wes doesn't stack up well athletically with other 2 guards in the league. In fact, that's the single greatest reason he didn't get drafted.

 

[Borat]

Therein lies one of your problems, Borat. You want to rely on, indeed create, if necessary, illusory versions of "reality" to "prove" your points.

The $25 million report was FALSE, get it?

Hopper (or perhaps in this case "Fool" would fit better as per your own description), I just explained to you how we both made potentially inaccurate statements based on erroneous report. You said we need to match an offer and I said we should have gotten the same or better deal ourselves in the first place - so we are not even in position to match "toxic" offer. Both of our statements are not necessarily true now, because they were based on false report. I even said later, point is moot, as offer is just too high. It's really not that hard to understand.

Of course your version of reality incorporates the assertion that the Jazz refused to talk to Matthews' agent after free agency started. Anyone who believes, and WANTS to believe, this must have some other agenda.

My version of reality? Did you read a scary sci-fi book or something? Based on Siler's reports it appears not much negotiations were done and we told Matthews to look elsewhere. I don't have an agenda here. When I see frustrating things happening I comment on them. When I see good things happening (like drafting a rookie who did excellent in summer League), I comment on them. I praised KOC in another thread for other moves he made. You, on the other hand, always are an apologists of the Jazz. No matter what they do. How else can you keep insisting Deron was far from unhappy with Jazz moves, even when being shown an article describing exactly the opposite? You are the one with the agenda here, not me.

 

[Hopper]

How else can you keep insisting Deron was far from unhappy with Jazz moves, even when being shown an article describing exactly the opposite?

Your MO just doesn't change does it, Borat? You distort the hell out of what is said, and then seem to think that if you repeat your distortions enough times they will be (or others will at least think that they are) true.

People can read and understand things for themselves, so your attempts are just futile and embarrassing (for you, not TO you, in the case of embarrassment). You just go right on ahead witcho bad self, Borat.

 

[Borat]

Your MO just doesn't change does it, Borat? You distort the hell out of what is said, and then seem to think that if you repeat your distortions enough times they will be (or others will at least think that they are) true.

People can read and understand things for themselves, so your attempts are just futile and embarrassing (for you, not TO you, in the case of embarrassment). You just go right on ahead witcho bad self, Borat.

That sci fi book must have been really scary eh, Hopper? Now I am distorting reality? You are laughable. After I proved you wrong by providing an article that describes (and even has the title of) the exact opposite of your claim, you are saying my attempts were futile and I am embarrassing myself. What nerve. That self description of fool you made sounds better and better. Looked at yourself in the mirror lately?

And btw, I don't see your response the the "agenda" issue you brought up. I have shown how I both praised FO (defended KOC quite a bit on this very board when most people were against Hayward pick, praised him for other moves) and criticized it. You have ALWAYS been an apologist of the Jazz, and therefore the one with agenda. No?