Millsap willing to come off the bench.

[Twin Towers]

Al might be better off the bench. When he's playing with talented players, those players' talents are wasted when Al has the ball, and Al's talents are wasted when those other players have the ball. That is, Al doesn't play very well without the ball, and he's not very good at making players around him better. He's a perfect option on an anemic second unit when half court sets lead to nothing. You can always just dump the ball into him and let him go to work.

Sap is the type of player who can complement talented players very well. If you need outside shooting, he can give you some of that. Transition O, facilitating from the high post, PnR, working from the baseline and short corner? He's proficient in all those spots too. His talents are somewhat wasted when playing with lesser players. If Favors can operate adequately from the low post, Sap's going to complement him a lot better than Jefferson will.

It's entirely possible that the Jazz would be better off with Sap starting and Al coming off the bench. They'll both be getting 30+ minutes anyway.

It lowers the value of Jefferson and makes him disgruntled. Jazz might as well showcase him and trade him after the first month if he is that much of a problem. Jefferson has worked hard this year and here is his chance to see if he understands the offense and plays better. If he does not trade him and start Favors and Millsap. Either way Jefferson will never be benched on this team.
I am honestly leading towards Corbin picking Favors. I honestly think Favors will be starting. After watching Corbin's interview from today. I think Corbin has been planing to pick Favors but didn't want to announce it while Millsap was injured. but its all speculation. We will find out monday or tuesday.
I hope the starting lineup goes like this.

Harris - Watson - Tinsely
Miles - Bell - Burks
Hayward - Howard - Evans
Favors - Millsap
Jefferson - Kanter

Hopefully we dump Bell for a trade exception, 2nd round pick or contracts that are not guaranteed.

I have a feeling the starting lineup will include Bell though for now.

 

[d@!!0n0rcutt]

I get why some of you want to start Millsap because his play and hard work have given him the right to be a starter, but PAUL MILLSAP is really only 6'7" and they are being very generous when they say he is 6'8", if you don't believe go check the pre-draft measurements on Millsap, and may coaches have said this and its so true, that you can not teach length. Trust me, I love Paul's hard work and dedication to this team, but when it comes to basketball size matters, and many other things but that's not the point. Listening to Locke interview the stats guy a couple days ago (on a podcast, I will have a link below for all of these quotes) Locke asks him, "With Millsap as a starter where does he rank as a power forward?" Stats guy says, "in the 20's somewhere," then Locke proceeds to ask, "Where does Millsap rank as a third big, the first big off the bench?" Stats guy answers, "Right in the top two in the league behind Lamar Odom, and it maybe a toss up between him and Odom!" Having hearing that it got me thinking, and I knew this last year when we got Derrick "The Future" Favors in that trade I thought to myself we are going to need to start this kid eventually and I said to myself what would a bench of scorers of Miles and Millsap look like for the Jazz, and now add Josh Howard and Enes Kanter getting offensive rebound and put backs, that Jazz hands down have to have a top tier second unit in this league and trust me you need a good bench to win in this league.

So having said all that, those Millsap lovers out there are still hating me for even mentioning the thought of, "oh no, don't bench our poor Millsap" be real here, be honest with yourselves, for all those who have been cut from a basketball team can relate to this, the more talented and taller guys always WIN! I know that is hard to swallow, and I didn't want to bring up those memories of all of us crying as a teenage boy. On a serious note, I agree with what someone said on the page before, you can not, ok correction you can but you shouldn't bench a $14 million dollar player like Jefferson. There is a reason Big Al gets a $14 million dollar contract a max contract at the time and Millsap will never touch a max contract. Big Al with all his flaws still produces and produces at a all-star level and it's not only the Jazz who think Al Jefferson deserves that kind of contract (even though none of these players actually deserve anything close to these amounts of money they are making) but its what the market is set for them and Millsap is paid like a third big, a sixth man, and that's the position he should be in. We got killed last year in the opposing power forward starters with Millsap starting, because they can shoot right over the top of him and there is a reason we got out rebounded with Al and Sap starting because of length, and its not all Paul's fault either but a lot of it is.

I have said this MANY times on this board, and I am sure its not the last...Paul Millsap is just a little taller then most NBA teams shooting guard, at 6'7", Kobe Bryant and C.J. Miles are 6'6", so that is enough said there. To end off just as another post I read earlier stated Paul Millsap will be the sixth man on this team and if he doesn't like it and some other team is willing to pay him more and start him, then good for that team and Paul can sign there when his contract is up and I will not put it past him to not say a word until his contract is up unless someone asks if he thinks he should be a starter because really if no one ever asked him whether he thinks he should be a starter or not then this wouldn't be an issue as much as it is because every NBA player if asked if they think they should be a starter would say they think they are or else they would be in this league. Paul Millsap is not a starting power forward or small forward on a contending team unless he has LeBron James and Dwayne Wade as his teammates or the great Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen (did I mention I really don't like either one of these duos). Last, I just want to say I love Paul Millsap's work ethic and heart and I wish every player that put on a Utah Jazz uniform had his mentality, but Paul as much as we all love his game, is just not a starting big man in this league if your franchise is about winning championships, because developing Derrick Favors into that star he will become should be this franchise's #1 priority because Derrick Favors is the type of player with teammates around him like Paul Millsap can win championships.

 

[cctrackstar]

You're going to base your argument on PRESS, not history?

You wouldn't know a thing about Paul's work ethic if it weren't for the media.

 

[mtnbayou]

This is so easy, i don`t see why more people don`t see it. Favors should be our center and Millsap our 4.

 

[cctrackstar]

This is so easy, i don`t see why more people don`t see it. Favors should be our center and Millsap our 4.

Ok, I am willing to consider this. This implies that Al is either coming off the bench, or is no longer on the team. Assuming that his agility is somewhat better than last year as we have heard, is Al helpful to the Jazz? I say yes he is, and we should keep him. He is the only post player on the Jazz with a go-to move that is unstoppable. Sure, Favors is long and athletic, but he doesn't have a signature move yet. Millsap does a lot of things reasonably well, but his closest thing to an unstoppable move is his 10 foot fadeaway jumper, good to have, but not enough. I think Al brings a necessary element to the team with his paint play, at least for this year, and needs to play.

Having said this, I do think that Millsap and Favors would play relatively well together, whether it is in the first unit or second. Favors would be waiting behind Millsap to block the shots that get by him.

 

[InGameStrategy]

For 2010-2011 (based on +/- per minute, in descending order):
Top 4 lineups with Favors (other ones weren't subtantially positive)
*Harris-Miles-Kirilenko-Favors-Jefferson
*Harris-Miles-Hayward-Favors-Jefferson
*Watson-Miles-Hayward-Evans-Favors
*Watson-Miles-Millsap-Favors-Jefferson
*Watson-Miles-Hayward-Millsap-Favors
https://www.82games.com/1011/10UTA13.HTM#5man

Top 6 lineups with Jefferson
*Williams-Miles-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson
*Watson-Williams-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson
*Harris-Miles-Kirilenko-Favors-Jefferson
*Watson-Price-Miles-Kirilenko-Jefferson
*Williams-Price-Miles-Millsap-Jefferson
*Watson-Bell-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson

Top 7 lineups with Millsap
*Williams-Bell-Miles-Millsap-Fesenko [<-- Imagine that. A lineup with Fesenko #1.]
*Williams-Miles-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson
*Watson-Williams-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson
*Harris-Miles-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson
*Williams-Bell-Miles-Millsap-Elson
*Williams-Price-Miles-Millsap-Jefferson
*Watson-Bell-Kirilenko-Millsap-Jefferson

Top 4 lineups with Harris (other ones weren't subtantially positive)
*Watson-Harris-Bell-Miles-Jefferson
*Harris-Bell-Kirilenko-Jefferson-Elson
*Harris-Miles-Kirilenko-Favors-Jefferson
*Harris-Miles-Hayward-Favors-Jefferson

[My conclusion: Not enough of a pattern to clearly suggest who should start, especially with DW and AK (and Price) gone (and prominently present in so many of these combinations).

So make it merit-based, on a per-game, per-quarter, and maybe even per-minute basis, just like it should be anyway.]

 

[InGameStrategy]

This is so easy, i don`t see why more people don`t see it. Favors should be our center and Millsap our 4.

Yes, because a starting 4/5 combination (DF + PM) averaging 6'9" (generously) is sooo effective.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Yes, because a starting 4/5 combination (DF + PM) averaging 6'9" (generously) is sooo effective.

Big Ben and Sheed had a ~6'9" "average height", and Id say they were pretty damn effective on both ends of the floor.

There are a lot more factors that tie-in with the effectiveness of a PF/C combination than just measuring the players' height. I think that Ty should test both of these proposed lineups before we can come to any sort of conclusions like the ones we are making. Seeing as KOC has said that Favors will play some 5, we will probably witness a lot of different lineups this season.

 

[Jazz4ever]

Ok, I am willing to consider this. This implies that Al is either coming off the bench, or is no longer on the team. Assuming that his agility is somewhat better than last year as we have heard, is Al helpful to the Jazz? I say yes he is, and we should keep him. He is the only post player on the Jazz with a go-to move that is unstoppable. Sure, Favors is long and athletic, but he doesn't have a signature move yet. Millsap does a lot of things reasonably well, but his closest thing to an unstoppable move is his 10 foot fadeaway jumper, good to have, but not enough. I think Al brings a necessary element to the team with his paint play, at least for this year, and needs to play.

Having said this, I do think that Millsap and Favors would play relatively well together, whether it is in the first unit or second. Favors would be waiting behind Millsap to block the shots that get by him.

Unstoppable eh? Then why does Millsap shoot a higher percentage and get to the line more than Al?

 

[TheSilencer1313]

Again with the love affair with Millsap. Al spent the entire offseason in Santa Barbara working on his vertical and agility, yet Millsap is a better worker? Nobody has said anything whatsoever this training camp about Millsap's improvements, yet he's a better worker? Many coaches and players have mentioned that Al has improved his speed and quickness, yet Millsap is a better worker?

Geez, get over the guy.

Funny how just because you like a certain player, means your having a love affair with him. Just like everyone has called me a Memo homer for liking what Okur used to bring.
I'm not saying Jefferson doesn't work hard, just not as hard as Millsap.
And let's face it, Big Al has a lot more natural ability than Millsap.
Millsap has had to work for everything he has gotten, considering he never used to have much of an offensive game at all.
Until Big Al shows that he has defensive prowess as a Jazz man, Millsap will continue to be the better all around player.
I love Big Al, and am rooting for him to have an All-star year.

 

[TheSilencer1313]

Big Ben and Sheed had a ~6'9" "average height", and Id say they were pretty damn effective on both ends of the floor.

There are a lot more factors that tie-in with the effectiveness of a PF/C combination than just measuring the players' height. I think that Ty should test both of these proposed lineups before we can come to any sort of conclusions like the ones we are making. Seeing as KOC has said that Favors will play some 5, we will probably witness a lot of different lineups this season.

Also Big Ben and Sheed never had to go up against the likes of Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, and dare I say Enes Kanter and Derrick Favors

 

[jazzrule]

This is so easy, i don`t see why more people don`t see it. Favors should be our center and Millsap our 4.

I said before the Kanter draft choice that if the Jazz drafted him it should be for power forward and Favors should be the future center for the Jazz. Look in the future for Favors to be at center. Nice to see the article in Deseret News that Favors is being looked at to play the center spot. I also said that the Jazz should give Burks some time at point guard to see if he is our future there. Again, there has been talk from camp of him seeing time at point guard this year. The future starting line-up for the Jazz may be:


Favors - center
Kanter - power forward
Next years Golden State's pick or who we get from a Jefferson trade at small forward
Hayward - shooting guard
Burks - point guard

Don't be surprised to see the above being the starting 5 for the Jazz. This line-up gives us size advantages at most positions and talent to.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Big Ben and Sheed had a ~6'9" "average height", and Id say they were pretty damn effective on both ends of the floor.

. . . except for just a few differences:
1. 'Sheed was listed at 6'11" and Big Ben at 6'9", both taller than Favors and Millsap, respectively.
2. 'Sheed was more of the power forward, making the usual outside flank less of a problem. Meanwhile, Millsap has not shown to be a center that would be the equivalent of Big Ben.
3. 'Sheed could shoot the 3--something that Favors can't do (and Millsap has been able to do only occasionally).
4. Sheed-Wallace was 5+ years ago; a case can be made that the skill (and possibly the height) of the NBA has changed.

There are a lot more factors that tie-in with the effectiveness of a PF/C combination than just measuring the players' height. I think that Ty should test both of these proposed lineups before we can come to any sort of conclusions like the ones we are making. Seeing as KOC has said that Favors will play some 5, we will probably witness a lot of different lineups this season.

I agree, and I would support Ty trying this combo also, but I will be pleasantly surprised if a Millsap-Favors combo can be consistently effective against opposing lineups that are significantly taller.

I anticipate that Favors-Jefferson in the first string, Millsap as the first big off the bench (unless PM figures out how to play the 3), and Millsap-Kanter in the second string will be a very good way to go.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Also Big Ben and Sheed never had to go up against the likes of Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, and dare I say Enes Kanter and Derrick Favors

Not sure if this is sarcasm, but Shaq is better than every single one of those players mentioned. We all know what happened in 2004, when Shaq was pretty much in his prime.

 

[Deleted member 848]

. . . except for just a few differences:
1. 'Sheed was listed at 6'11" and Big Ben at 6'9", both taller than Favors and Millsap, respectively.
2. 'Sheed was more of the power forward, making the usual outside flank less of a problem. Meanwhile, Millsap has not shown to be a center that would be the equivalent of Big Ben.
3. 'Sheed could shoot the 3--something that Favors can't do (and Millsap has been able to do only occasionally).
4. Sheed-Wallace was 5+ years ago; a case can be made that the skill (and possibly the height) of the NBA has changed.

1) There is no way that Ben Wallace is 6'9"; this is widely known throughout the league. The most generous estimates you'll find is more around the neighbourhood of 6'6"-6'7". Theres plenty of pictures all over the net of him standing next to (and being visibly the same height) as Hamilton. So it could definitely be argued that Paul Millsap is a taller player. Derrick Favors was among the youngest players drafted last year, and he was measured at 6'10". Recent pictures and stories seem to indicate that he has grown past this measurements. Hence, if you compare the averages of both duo's actual heights, I doubt that there would be a significant difference.
2) Respectable point. However, I don't foresee this having a significant impact, or go to the length of saying that shorter PF/C duos only work when the PF is tall.
3) You really don't think Millsap can stroke the three consistently?? I mean he was among the best midrange-extended shooters in the NBA last season, regardless of position. Its hard to say with such a small sample size, but it would be foolish to assume that he wouldn't connect consistently from 3point land when all of the signs of his player profile indicate that he definitely could
4) Please link some data indicating whether the average height of the NBA has changed over the past 5 years. Shaq was also in his prime, easily the most dominant center of the decade bar-none, with only Dwight having a far-fetched chance of halving Shaqs legacy. Not sure what notion could be formed from this point

I agree, and I would support Ty trying this combo also, but I will be pleasantly surprised if a Millsap-Favors combo can be consistently effective against opposing lineups that are significantly taller.

I anticipate that Favors-Jefferson in the first string, Millsap as the first big off the bench (unless PM figures out how to play the 3), and Millsap-Kanter in the second string will be a very good way to go.

Same. Im a pretty big Jefferson fan, and Im quite keen on keeping both him and Millsap this season, since we really don't know how much they could offer to our team at this point. I mean, we could both argue and dispute, but we both don't know for sure what will actually happen in-game, until we see it. Fortunately for us, Corbin seems a bit more experimental than Sloan, so hopefully ideas like these will be tested, to see what is most effective for our team

 

[freakazoid]

The Jazz will NEVER bench Jefferson. Jefferson is getting paid 14 million this year. No reason to even talk about it. The Jazz will showcase him to trade him or continue with him as the starting center You don't bench a guy making 14 million a year who is still valuable and helping the team. Yes he has his faults. I am not a huge supporter even. But benching him will never happen.

This.

It's entirely possible that the Jazz would be better off with Sap starting and Al coming off the bench. They'll both be getting 30+ minutes anyway.

To me, it's not so important who is starting right now, so much as who will be staying. IMO, Sap is staying, unless someone makes an offer we can't refuse. I don't think the same can be said for Al, because of the contract. If Utah isn't in the playoff hunt, I think KOC has to seriously consider moving him, which means he has to be a starter. If Corbin was to start Sap over Favors, I'd be fine with it in the short term. If he decides to have Sap come off the bench for now, so be it. All I care about is that Utah takes care of first things first, and IMO, that means answering the big Al question.

 

[InGameStrategy]

1) There is no way that Ben Wallace is 6'9"; this is widely known throughout the league. The most generous estimates you'll find is more around the neighbourhood of 6'6"-6'7". Theres plenty of pictures all over the net of him standing next to (and being visibly the same height) as Hamilton. So it could definitely be argued that Paul Millsap is a taller player. Derrick Favors was among the youngest players drafted last year, and he was measured at 6'10". Recent pictures and stories seem to indicate that he has grown past this measurements. Hence, if you compare the averages of both duo's actual heights, I doubt that there would be a significant difference.

OK, but until Millsap can prove to play center (or defend PFs 3 inches taller), Sheed-Ben is a more credible combo than Favors-Millsap.

2) Respectable point. However, I don't foresee this having a significant impact, or go to the length of saying that shorter PF/C duos only work when the PF is tall.

. . . unless it does--because it is a major difference between the comparison of Millsap-Favors and Wallace-Wallace. We've seen how Millsap has a tough time with taller PFs--at least defensively.

3) You really don't think Millsap can stroke the three consistently?? I mean he was among the best midrange-extended shooters in the NBA last season, regardless of position. Its hard to say with such a small sample size, but it would be foolish to assume that he wouldn't connect consistently from 3point land when all of the signs of his player profile indicate that he definitely could.

Well, Millsap has had a good 3-point % one year, vs. a 33% career 3-point percentage for sheed.

4) Please link some data indicating whether the average height of the NBA has changed over the past 5 years. Shaq was also in his prime, easily the most dominant center of the decade bar-none, with only Dwight having a far-fetched chance of halving Shaqs legacy. Not sure what notion could be formed from this point

You are correct on this one; height does not appear to have changed significantly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_league_average_height,_weight,_age_and_playing_experience

Same. Im a pretty big Jefferson fan, and Im quite keen on keeping both him and Millsap this season, since we really don't know how much they could offer to our team at this point. I mean, we could both argue and dispute, but we both don't know for sure what will actually happen in-game, until we see it. Fortunately for us, Corbin seems a bit more experimental than Sloan, so hopefully ideas like these will be tested, to see what is most effective for our team

Well, that's what a message board is for--to prognosticate. But yes, it is a bit promising that Corbin might not be so rigid.

 

[GVC]

It's hard to understand how a person who uses only +/- in coming to conclusions fails to mention that Paul Millsap was 10th in the NBA in adjusted +/- last season, and consistently scores very high in the measure. The dude does all the little things that make his teammates better and help his team win games. Whether he starts or comes off the bench, he needs minutes if the Jazz are interested in winning games.

Beyond that, Favors has better size, strength and athleticism than Big Al, and is more suited to the 5. There's more to basketball than height.