Minutes played

[fishonjazz]

Not sure this deserves it own thread but I didn't know where to put it.

Looking at nba player minutes played per game list and a jazz player doesn't show up on the list until #49 with Lauri at 32.7 minutes per game. (suns had 4 dudes over 35 minutes per game just last night lol) The next jazz player shows up at #85 for jordan clarkson at 29.9. No other jazz player is in the top 100. Collins would be next at 27 minutes and then a huge drop down to sexton at 24 minutes.

This is very unorthodox in the nba. The box and one zone being used so much is also unorthodox in the nba. Playing collins so much who is a huge minus to the team and playing kessler much less who is usually a big positive is a little unorthodox as well. Playing a 10 man rotation each game like hardy has done for most of the season (he even went with 11 for a while when tht was playing earlier) is unorthodox in the nba.

Looking at this data makes me think that Hardy isn't trying super duper hard to win each and every game and is doing a lot of tinkering and experimenting even at the cost of wins. I think if he was trying super duper hard to win then he would play whoever he thinks are his best players more minutes if nothing else.

FWIW I kind of like that approach. (despite the fact I have complained about it a bit this season lol). We aren't winning a championship and likely wont win a playoff series so might as well try lots of ****. But I do think this team can win more than it is right now and that is a good thing.

The rebuild is going well. I do understand that patience is hard for a lot of people though (I volunteer at my daughters elementary school most every monday and tuesday to watch them at recess and help them in the cafeteria opening their chocolate milks, peeling oranges, cleaning up messes for them etc. So I know how hard it is to be patient lol.)

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Looking at nba player minutes played per game list and a jazz player doesn't show up on the list until #49 with Lauri at 32.7 minutes per game.

He's basically playing Lauri as much as possible. The amount of miles Lauri logs per game is already crazy for a 7 footer who doesn't have the lightest build.

I think you tend to find your own limits over a 7 year NBA career.

 

[fishonjazz]

He's basically playing Lauri as much as possible. The amount of miles Lauri logs per game is already crazy for a 7 footer who doesn't have the lightest build.

I think you tend to find your own limits over a 7 year NBA career.

Just saying. No other coach in the league does this. I see guys who are older with more injury history logging way more minutes. Guys who have way more offensive burden on their shoulders with way higher volume.

Maybe you are right though and Lauri and his situation is so unique the he is literally the only star player who can't play more than 33 minutes per game.

Thing is, it isn't just Lauri who has lower minutes than the way other teams use their players.

Again, last night the Suns had 4 guys play over 35 minutes in a non overtime game that wasn't particularly close.

I am 100% certain that there hasn't been a single game this season when the jazz have had 4 guys play over 35 minutes. Or over 30 minutes. Or have three guys over 30 minutes. Or 2 guys over 35 minutes. (Excluding OT games of course)(actually, maybe the 2 guys over 35 minutes could have happened this season. Doubtful though)

Just saying that what hardy is doing is completely different than the rest of the league. You can give really good reasons to why this is happening but you have to admit that it's kind of unique.


And again I'm fine with Hardy trying stuff that might cost a few wins here and there. It's a good season to experiment a bit
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[candrew]

Hardy's minute distribution closely mirrors what Pop did in San Antonio - and Pop acknowledged stealing this idea from Jerry Sloan, lol

If you look at Utah in the late 90's it was Malone playing 35-37mpg and all the other rotation players in the 18-29mpg range.

B-Russ would creep over 29mpg on occasion but he was the exception

 

[fishonjazz]

Hardy's minute distribution closely mirrors what Pop did in San Antonio - and Pop acknowledged stealing this idea from Jerry Sloan, lol

If you look at Utah in the late 90's it was Malone playing 35-37mpg and all the other rotation players in the 18-29mpg range.

B-Russ would creep over 29mpg on occasion but he was the exception

Just randomly grabbed a sloan year
95-96 malone 38 minutes. stockton 35.5. hornacek 31.6.

Even the 35-37 minutes per game for malone that you mentioned would put him up a lot higher than 49th in the league where lauri is sitting. I think if you play lauri more minutes we win a few more games. But again, Im not sure that we are trying super duper hard to win any and every game. Maybe Hardy is more aligned with the front office than we realize.

 

[fishonjazz]

Quin snyders last year: Mitchell 34, gobert 32, royce 31. bojan 31.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think the biggest thing Hardy should do is flip Sexton and Clarkson minutes and flip Collins and Kessler minutes. I that would get us a few extra wins (If we want a few extra wins)

Sexton started playing better when he got into the starting lineup and got a minutes bump. Clarkson is having the worst season of his career and also the second most minutes of his career. His best seasons were with snyder (6th man of year kinda stuff) when he was getting 24, 26, 27 minutes per game. Instead of the 33 (last year) and 30 he is getting this year. Probably help clarkson and sexton both play better.

Collins advanced stats are bad. Kessler seems to make the team better. Give kessler the 27 minutes per game that collins is getting and give collins the 23 minutes per game Kessler is getting. I would probably also bump up Lauri by a couple minutes as well but I think just flipping sexton and clarkson plus flipping kessler and collins minutes would make the jazz a better team.

 

[fishonjazz]

Another thing. I love what hardy has done with Keyonte's minutes. For a lot of the year he was just horrible and might have cost us a few games. Hardy didn't care. He loved what he saw in keyonte and believed in him and kept giving him large doses of regular minutes regardless of how keyonte played.

Now keyonte is playing great. He has been on a tear lately. (like the last 7-10 games or so? @HermanG would know) Got over 30 minutes last night! Awesomeness.

 

[candrew]

Just randomly grabbed a sloan year
95-96 malone 38 minutes. stockton 35.5. hornacek 31.6.

Even the 35-37 minutes per game for malone would put him up a lot higher than 49th in the league where lauri is sitting. I think if you play lauri more minutes we win a few more games. But again, Im sure that we are trying super duper hard to win any and every game. Maybe Hardy is more aligned with the front office than we realize.

Lol. Maybe you should randomly grab one from the late 90s like l pointed out in my OP

 

[fishonjazz]

Lol. Maybe you should randomly grab one from the late 90s like l pointed out in my OP

I thought I said something about that.
Maybe I forgot to.
Ya if Malone was playing 35-37 minutes per game then that would put him way higher than 49th on the list.
So ya some years it would seem that sloan did some similar things with minutes to hardy but still had a great play playing similar minutes to the other great players in the league instead much less. Other years sloan played 4 guys over 30 minutes.

I don't think what Hardy is doing is unprecedented. Just rare and different from most of the other coaches.

Maybe he is just experimenting in a year that doesn't matter all that much and in a few years he will have a more traditional amount of minutes to guys in the rotation and instead of 10 or 11 guy rotations it will 8 or 9 most games.

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[HermanG]

Another thing. I love what hardy has done with Keyonte's minutes. For a lot of the year he was just horrible and might have cost us a few games. Hardy didn't care. He loved what he saw in keyonte and believed in him and kept giving him large doses of regular minutes regardless of how keyonte played.

Now keyonte is playing great. He has been on a tear lately. (like the last 7-10 games or so? @HermanG would know) Got over 30 minutes last night! Awesomeness.

Last 12 games his numbers are 44/37/87 and last 6 are 51/39/85

The more you grow the sample the rougher it gets.. which also shows that he has been on an ascending curve all year (except he had an absolute slump in January, as we all saw).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The Jazz only have one complete player. The complete player gets the most minutes.

Everyone else is hyper flawed and has to be mixes and matched based on matchups if the Jazz want to have any chance on a game to game basis

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Another thing. I love what hardy has done with Keyonte's minutes. For a lot of the year he was just horrible and might have cost us a few games. Hardy didn't care. He loved what he saw in keyonte and believed in him and kept giving him large doses of regular minutes regardless of how keyonte played.

Now keyonte is playing great. He has been on a tear lately. (like the last 7-10 games or so? @HermanG would know) Got over 30 minutes last night! Awesomeness.

Well yeah, Keyonte is higher IQ than Sexton and Clarkson so it's easy to give him minutes. He's not making as many mistakes as Sexton and he isn't as erratic as Clarkson.

 

[fishonjazz]

The Jazz only have one complete player. The complete player gets the most minutes.

Everyone else is hyper flawed and has to be mixes and matched based on matchups if the Jazz want to have any chance on a game to game basis

I agree but I dont think that grayson allen is super amazing.
Looking at the games before last night: (suns Durant 35, gordon 38, beal 37, allen 35)
Thunder: Holmgren 31, Williams 35, sga 36, dort 30. Jazz: Markenann 36. No one else over 30
Bucks: Crowder 40, giannis 40, portis 36, lillard 38, beasley 30. Jazz: Markennan 36. No one else over 30 (no one even close actually)
76ers: Harris 39, maxey 41, oubre 40. Jazz: Lauri 33, collins 34
Knicks: Achuiwa 40, Brunson 38, Hart 43, Divincenzo 39. Jazz: Lauri 34. No one else over 30
Hornets: Miller 37, Bridges 41, Richards 36. Jazz: Markannen 36, Collins 32, Sexton 35 (much more typical this game in a nice 12 point win)
Even the wizards who aren't trying to win and were kinda blown out: Kuzman, gafford, and jones all over 30.
Could probably keep going forever but im gonna stop here.

It just seems to not be the norm.

 

[fishonjazz]

Lol. Maybe you should randomly grab one from the late 90s like l pointed out in my OP

Idk if 98-99 counts as late 90's but that season had malone 37, russell 35, and hornacek 30. (stockton and hornacek were 36 and 35 years old at that time which could effect things a bit.)
not sure 99-00 counts as late 90's either but that season had malone 36, russel 35, stockton 30. (now stockton is 37 years old and hornacek is 36. Their minutes were actually kinda high for their I think)

I concede that bringing up age is kind of moving the goalposts a bit but I wasn't really planning on talking about seasons from 30 years ago when I made this thread. I was more talking about the present

 

[fishonjazz]

Again, I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to hate on hardy though I can see how it may look that way.

I think tinkering and experimenting this season is a good thing even if we lose a few extra games.

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[Mr. T]

@fishonjazz have you ever heard the definition insanity? Do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

Basically, what I am trying to hint is, that with the material available, Hard Willy simply cannot compete with other teams. Hence, you gotta find new ways of punching gaping holes into opponents. Thus far it has been speed and relentlessness. As this is an extremely taxing way of playing bb, especially at a high altitude, it requires distributing minutes. Basically a thing that is norm in icehockey.

I think, thus far the results are not too bad, so Hard Willy might be onto something here.

 

[Mr. T]

And to add, this is partially what creates the Jazz home agvantage.

 

[fishonjazz]

@fishonjazz have you ever heard the definition insanity? Do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

Basically, what I am trying to hint is, that with the material available, Hard Willy simply cannot compete with other teams. Hence, you gotta find new ways of punching gaping holes into opponents. Thus far it has been speed and relentlessness. As this is an extremely taxing way of playing bb, especially at a high altitude, it requires distributing minutes. Basically a thing that is norm in icehockey.

I think, thus far the results are not too bad, so Hard Willy might be onto something here.

Agreed. I guess I'm just thinking that maybe there is more to it. A different angle.
Maybe Hardy is more on sync with the front office than some of us think.
Maybe he is trying to give the FO a look at more guys in case they want to move them. Maybe they want other teams to get more of a look at more guys. Maybe he is simply experimenting and tinkering with some things to figure out what may or may not work in the coming years (like the zone thing). Maybe he is playing the long game kind of like Danny Ainge is. I truly think we could have a few more wins if our best players played more minutes like most other teams who are trying to win do. But maybe the 10th seed isn't all that important to Hardy and he is looking more towards the future.

Idk, Im just having a hard time finding the other teams that are doing the same thing while also trying to maximize wins.

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[fishonjazz]

And to add, this is partially what creates the Jazz home agvantage.

Not saying your are wrong but if true then more teams should want the same advantages that we get by having a huge rotation with spread out low minutes and gimmicky defenses for their teams.

Maybe we are playing chess and they are playing checkers. Of course in this case chess is resulting in the 10th seed so far.

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