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More "Settled Science"

babe

Well-Known Member
The past is probably not yet "settled history" any more than it is "settled science", but hey, our teachers find such notions problematic when under such a crush to produce the test scores demanded by educational authorities determined to prepare humans to serve useful lives within corporate niches necessary for settled oligarchs to continue on their customary rounds of vacations and UN parties/summits..... while the cash cows just keep smoothly pumping out the necessary funds.....

And just when a few respectable anthropologists have barely dared whisper about people being in America before the meltdown of the last Ice age, here is something they will be obligated to treat skeptically.....

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/were-humans-americas-100000-years-earlier-scientists-thought

Enterprising humans using stones to shatter big Mastodon bones... to get the nutritious marrow or create useful bone shards for tool purposes......

130,000 years ago, in San Diego County. Stones and bones obviously transported to a comfortable, sandy campsite on purpose, left there in absolute incongruity with the geological formation.....
 
I wouldn't be troubled at all at the notion the Americas were inhabited long before generally accepted dates. However, I am a fourth generation artifact hunter with literally tens of thousands of artifacts and am of the opinion the oldest items WE have ever found or seen are a few dozen Clovis points (one was embedded within a mastodon femur.

Like I said, it wouldn't surprise if we were to discover proof of existence of 100,000 years back.. but that article fails miserably at providing a shred of proof.
 
Evidence found of human activity in North America 130,000 years ago...

...Babe starts a thread (another thread) about the UN...
 
I wouldn't be troubled at all at the notion the Americas were inhabited long before generally accepted dates. However, I am a fourth generation artifact hunter with literally tens of thousands of artifacts and am of the opinion the oldest items WE have ever found or seen are a few dozen Clovis points (one was embedded within a mastodon femur.

Like I said, it wouldn't surprise if we were to discover proof of existence of 100,000 years back.. but that article fails miserably at providing a shred of proof.

So please explain why you are not in jail, or facing charges, for robbing BLM-protected artifacts...oh, say, like the Redds? If you find stuff out there, you do not have the right, under our laws, to remove it or keep in your possession.

Well, unless you are working under contract......

An archaeological site needs to be worked professionally because good science demands some basic understanding of the methods of science.... including the context of the whole site.

Another site in SoCal, just off I-15 just east of the Ag checkpoint, was brought to light by the famous Lecke. It has nothing but broken boulders to the ordinary eye, and is also "controversial" professionally, but busloads of students go there on regular outings.

I read the Science OP link and considered it likely, if not proven, because of the remarks about the context. A set of well-rounded donies with wear marks, sitting in a sedimentary (quaternary) deposit of unconsolidated sand, with a bunch of big smashed bones evidently smashed on purpose. There was nothing in the context that could account for either existing in that place.

Context can tell a lot, without recognizable "Clovis" or any other style of design. West of Delta, Utah, there is a pass over a low summit called "Skull Rock Pass" because there is a boulder the size of a small house sitting atop an ancient mudflow now consolidated as rock, along with thousands of smaller boulders, all of the same type of rock, which is unlike anything within twenty miles.

About twenty miles away there is a mountain called "Crystal Peak" which is entirely disconnected from the local context. The Utah geologist Stokes (probably not our JFC mod), studied it and concluded there must be a volcanic caldera nearby that blew some forty million years ago, landing Crystal Peak in its present location, and the rocks of Skull Rock Pass in their location.

Some assorted surface rocks inside the former margins of Lake Bonneville can be understood to be there because of erosion or winter floods at a distant site depositing the rocks on a frozen lake. During spring melt some ice will float some distance before melting and dropping the rocks carried on the surface.

Being familiar with the rudimentary notions of how things can happen, and what it takes to account for stuff landing in a particular place, I recognize the vain and foolish attempts to deny the obvious, sneering at the evidence and deriding it as having none of elements some are more familiar with, and calling it unproven.

Some people purposefully, willfully, are determined to deny obvious facts, and since I was in public schools from kindergarten on, I have seen plenty of plain, determined ignoramuses laughing at stuff they won't even read, let alone respond to on the validity of what is said in the presented information.

Until now, I've been loathe to put our good Doctor in the same class. Fine if you are unconvinced, but to baldy deny evidence you refuse to discuss in detail is beneath a good respondent.

yah, some "scientists" are gonna take a long long time to accept something like this, one smartass prof even said, without looking at the evidence or reading the detail of the report, that bones could be crushed that way by road building equipment. But he's an ignoramus, too. The site was carefully worked outside the area where the bulldozers had been, and photographed in the process of discovery while carefully exposing the material.

The problem this presents to traditional theories of anthropology are immense. It is the theories that will end up shattered after the old fossils holding down chairs in university anthropology departments are finally taken to the graveyard.
 
So please explain why you are not in jail, or facing charges, for robbing BLM-protected artifacts...oh, say, like the Redds? If you find stuff out there, you do not have the right, under our laws, to remove it or keep in your possession.

Well, unless you are working under contract......

An archaeological site needs to be worked professionally because good science demands some basic understanding of the methods of science.... including the context of the whole site.

Another site in SoCal, just off I-15 just east of the Ag checkpoint, was brought to light by the famous Lecke. It has nothing but broken boulders to the ordinary eye, and is also "controversial" professionally, but busloads of students go there on regular outings.

I read the Science OP link and considered it likely, if not proven, because of the remarks about the context. A set of well-rounded donies with wear marks, sitting in a sedimentary (quaternary) deposit of unconsolidated sand, with a bunch of big smashed bones evidently smashed on purpose. There was nothing in the context that could account for either existing in that place.

Context can tell a lot, without recognizable "Clovis" or any other style of design. West of Delta, Utah, there is a pass over a low summit called "Skull Rock Pass" because there is a boulder the size of a small house sitting atop an ancient mudflow now consolidated as rock, along with thousands of smaller boulders, all of the same type of rock, which is unlike anything within twenty miles.

About twenty miles away there is a mountain called "Crystal Peak" which is entirely disconnected from the local context. The Utah geologist Stokes (probably not our JFC mod), studied it and concluded there must be a volcanic caldera nearby that blew some forty million years ago, landing Crystal Peak in its present location, and the rocks of Skull Rock Pass in their location.

Some assorted surface rocks inside the former margins of Lake Bonneville can be understood to be there because of erosion or winter floods at a distant site depositing the rocks on a frozen lake. During spring melt some ice will float some distance before melting and dropping the rocks carried on the surface.

Being familiar with the rudimentary notions of how things can happen, and what it takes to account for stuff landing in a particular place, I recognize the vain and foolish attempts to deny the obvious, sneering at the evidence and deriding it as having none of elements some are more familiar with, and calling it unproven.

Some people purposefully, willfully, are determined to deny obvious facts, and since I was in public schools from kindergarten on, I have seen plenty of plain, determined ignoramuses laughing at stuff they won't even read, let alone respond to on the validity of what is said in the presented information.

Until now, I've been loathe to put our good Doctor in the same class. Fine if you are unconvinced, but to baldy deny evidence you refuse to discuss in detail is beneath a good respondent.

yah, some "scientists" are gonna take a long long time to accept something like this, one smartass prof even said, without looking at the evidence or reading the detail of the report, that bones could be crushed that way by road building equipment. But he's an ignoramus, too. The site was carefully worked outside the area where the bulldozers had been, and photographed in the process of discovery while carefully exposing the material.

The problem this presents to traditional theories of anthropology are immense. It is the theories that will end up shattered after the old fossils holding down chairs in university anthropology departments are finally taken to the graveyard.
Wow.. what a douchey post.
Most of the collection was found way before antiquity laws were established and almost all my hunting has been on private property. Have I picked up arrowheads on public lands? Yes.. and guess what? It's not illegal like most think.
 
Wow, how the early human got there across the ocean 100,000 years ago is pretty amazing.


How do you guys think they did it?
 
Evidence found of human activity in North America 130,000 years ago...

...Babe starts a thread (another thread) about the UN...

Is there something wrong with the UN? Everyone I've ever known or met who has worked there has been articulate, intelligent, well educated and informed. Are these not positive things anymore?
 
Is there something wrong with the UN? Everyone I've ever known or met who has worked there has been articulate, intelligent, well educated and informed. Are these not positive things anymore?
I don't have a problem with the UN. Babe, on the other hand, sees it as the puppet of British imperialists with the end goal of enslaving humanity.

He's so concerned be sees the discovery of 130,000 year old evidence off humans in north america as somehow connected to the UN.

Sent from my SM-J700P using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Funniest part for me is that scientists are evaluating this find. I heard about it last Friday on NPR on the show Science Friday. But babe wants us to think the science establishment is rejecting the evidence.

Sent from my SM-J700P using JazzFanz mobile app
 
I don't have a problem with the UN. Babe, on the other hand, sees it as the puppet of British imperialists with the end goal of enslaving humanity.

He's so concerned be sees the discovery of 130,000 year old evidence off humans in north america as somehow connected to the UN.

Sent from my SM-J700P using JazzFanz mobile app


What's wrong with the British Empire? Doesn't Babe know that you Americans more or less an extension of the British Empire anyway? Its those freemasons you really have to watch... Might chew on some of the Flashman papers before I hit the hay.
 
Wow.. what a douchey post.
Most of the collection was found way before antiquity laws were established and almost all my hunting has been on private property. Have I picked up arrowheads on public lands? Yes.. and guess what? It's not illegal like most think.

The taking of artifacts without documentation in general is a tremendous disservice to science/archaeology and the concept of artifacts as a prize for a "collection" is an artifact in and of itself. While babe's post is as douchey as it gets, what you seem proud of doing is no less so.

This is being said with the disclaimer that arrowhead points will, generally speaking, have low value, but you seem to imply it's much more in depth than that.
 
Wow.. what a douchey post.
Most of the collection was found way before antiquity laws were established and almost all my hunting has been on private property. Have I picked up arrowheads on public lands? Yes.. and guess what? It's not illegal like most think.

I've had you pegged as a contract site locator in the pay of the BLM, and I've thought that's one great part-time job and probably necessary for someone in the building/construction industry to be experienced and qualified to do. For example, before building a posh hangout retreat a half mile off the Santa Clara river, on a little sandy bench where a gully spreads out into the river bottom, you should do some expert digging to locate the ancient village artifacts.....

mostly, I just thought the "no shred of evidence" statement was pretty premature.....The guys who published the report spent years digging and taking pics and getting stuff dated by scientific methods.... and probably looked for every conceivable, under presently acceptable standards, explanation to the contrary..... and found reasons to believe the artifacts are what they say.

Not to say the science will ever be absolutely settled. This could be an entirely independent line of human-like creatures. Opposable digits, thumbs and tool-handling capabilities.... I believe I've seen monkeys cracking coconuts with this same level of technology and intelligence.....
 
What's wrong with the British Empire? Doesn't Babe know that you Americans more or less an extension of the British Empire anyway? Its those freemasons you really have to watch... Might chew on some of the Flashman papers before I hit the hay.

I find this level of discussion the sort of thing I really look for, more than Bullet's sheer incredulity.

I believe there is a story line with adequate historical evidence to construct the history of the progressive movement of the latter half of the nineteenth century, all of the twentieth and running up to now, of how the UN has been an objective proposed new extension of the British Empire, with some concessions to the natives around the world which were intended to be mainly public relations displays.....

People from the Lord Cecil Rhodes stamp, at the outset quite starkly racist, calculating how to project influence and power without being too overtly offensive.

Yes, the people who float along with the UN are quite articulate, and very intelligent, and there is a lot of merit in the intellectual attainments of its proponents. I consider, btw, the whole Marxist diversion to be a careful response by British elites to the problem of the American Revolution. Without finding an appropriate tool for dividing the whole world into opposing camps, a little nation like Great Britain would surely quickly become irrelevant in the modern world....

I am British 100% as much as any living human could possibly be. If family lore is factual, I am about a fourth or fifth cousin to Prince Phillip. If genealogical records can be relied on.... possibly problematic with pretenders to royalty abounding.... but almost certainly with rudimentary statistics, I could boast family connections to the royalty of practically all of Europe, and in fact am a Scot descendent of Robert the Bruce as well as the Irish and Welsh kings.....l

My wife can match every such claim with her own, though she has some German ancestry as well.....

I think we have every Jane Austen book and movie, and are, despite our American Revolutionary War hero ancestors, still quite British in our ways.....

Mormons have found no shame in their Masonic connections, either, though I have it on the advice and opinion of a great scholar of the subject, that the Masons originated in Scotland no sooner than the fifteenth
century, not as Mormons have presumed, the days of Solomon. I'd probably find something to quibble about even if Solomon employed the secret order in constructing the Great Temple, because Joseph Smith also intimated that the priests of that day were destroying the true faith, supplanting it with their own sophistries.

So, no, people could decry my opinions as the ravings of Brit loon just as well as I can make the UN and the New World Order movement out to be a fascist apparition masquerading as the pinnacle of human virtues.

My point boils down to the fundamental question of innate human rights and human dignity, to the principle of equality under the law. It is the same question that vexed the quarrelsome Brits to force the arrogant King to sign the Magna Carta to vouchsafe the traditional common laws expected among the British anciently.....

always a good practice for anyone to check their basic axioms of reasoning a few times along a life's path....
 
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The taking of artifacts without documentation in general is a tremendous disservice to science/archaeology and the concept of artifacts as a prize for a "collection" is an artifact in and of itself. While babe's post is as douchey as it gets, what you seem proud of doing is no less so.

This is being said with the disclaimer that arrowhead points will, generally speaking, have low value, but you seem to imply it's much more in depth than that.
There were items taken that much history was loss, for sure, but that ended in the mid 70's with better education and deeper meaning.

I love my artifacts more than any other possession. I have American Indian friends that tell me they wish more cared as much as I do. Can't correct the past, but I have purchased culturally sensitive lands and paid to have them professionally excavated to preserve a rich history.

Other times, there's simply not anything more than a few arrowheads and nothing of note to learn.

I make plenty of mistakes on the reg.. but stealing history and heritage is not amongst them.
 
If I came across an arrow head, I'm taking it. Sorry Science.

The UN is pretty useless, but it gives people a place to gather and discuss ****. Also does some charity.

British city culture is practically identical to American city culture. I can barely tell the difference.

This news about the possibility of more ancient humans in America have literally been reported on every science website. Not sure why babe is framing it as if he uncovered it in a hidden Egyptian tomb.
 
I don't buy it. 130000 years is too big of an ask. There's something else going on here. "Maybe people did it?" is not a satisfactory answer.

That being said I have always been skeptical of the dating to human arrival in the new world. I can accept it as the oldest proven human habitation but I suspect that humans were here earlier. Mostly because I marvel at native American agricultural sophistication. Compare ****ing maize to wheat! Pumpkins, squash, potatoes, peppers, tomatoes, etc. It seems unlikely to me that it took 100k years for the old world to reach the agricultural revolution but it took the native Americans under 4k to colonize 2 continents and start an agricultural revolution simultaneously in Mexico and Peru.
 
I find this level of discussion the sort of thing I really look for, more than Bullet's sheer incredulity.

I believe there is a story line with adequate historical evidence to construct the history of the progressive movement of the latter half of the nineteenth century, all of the twentieth and running up to now, of how the UN has been an objective proposed new extension of the British Empire, with some concessions to the natives around the world which were intended to be mainly public relations displays.....

People from the Lord Cecil Rhodes stamp, at the outset quite starkly racist, calculating how to project influence and power without being too overtly offensive.

Yes, the people who float along with the UN are quite articulate, and very intelligent, and there is a lot of merit in the intellectual attainments of its proponents. I consider, btw, the whole Marxist diversion to be a careful response by British elites to the problem of the American Revolution. Without finding an appropriate tool for dividing the whole world into opposing camps, a little nation like Great Britain would surely quickly become irrelevant in the modern world....

I am British 100% as much as any living human could possibly be. If family lore is factual, I am about a fourth or fifth cousin to Prince Phillip. If genealogical records can be relied on.... possibly problematic with pretenders to royalty abounding.... but almost certainly with rudimentary statistics, I could boast family connections to the royalty of practically all of Europe, and in fact am a Scot descendent of Robert the Bruce as well as the Irish and Welsh kings.....l

My wife can match every such claim with her own, though she has some German ancestry as well.....

I think we have every Jane Austen book and movie, and are, despite our American Revolutionary War hero ancestors, still quite British in our ways.....

Mormons have found no shame in their Masonic connections, either, though I have it on the advice and opinion of a great scholar of the subject, that the Masons originated in Scotland no sooner than the fifteenth
century, not as Mormons have presumed, the days of Solomon. I'd probably find something to quibble about even if Solomon employed the secret order in constructing the Great Temple, because Joseph Smith also intimated that the priests of that day were destroying the true faith, supplanting it with their own sophistries.

So, no, people could decry my opinions as the ravings of Brit loon just as well as I can make the UN and the New World Order movement out to be a fascist apparition masquerading as the pinnacle of human virtues.

My point boils down to the fundamental question of innate human rights and human dignity, to the principle of equality under the law. It is the same question that vexed the quarrelsome Brits to force the arrogant kind to sign the Magna Carta to vouchsafe the traditional common laws expected among the British anciently.....

always a good practice for anyone to check their basic axioms of reasoning a few times along a life's path....


So you're related to royalty hey? Can I have a 100 bucks? That is the greatest bit of unspooled madness I've read in ages, what a lot of rot. Do you own guns by any chance?
 
There appears to be two main bones of contention which scientists engaged in the subject of the peopling of the Americas will and have focused on where this 1992 discovery is concerned.

1. Are the stones identified as tools, in fact tools? One of my archaeologist friends suggested the anvilstone may very well be. But the hammerstones were not convincing, as far as he was concerned, and that will likely be a common reaction going forward.

2. The lead author claims the pattern of breakage displayed by the bones(which are mineralized bone, i.e., fossilized, not still bone)could only have been caused by humans. Others have pointed out the breakage could have occurred by the weight of multi-ton equipment on the surface above where the remains laid. Personally, I don't buy that, for the reasons the lead author has stated elsewhere. Evidence was presented, for example, that the breakage had to have occurred when the bones were still fresh, i.e., ~130,000 years ago, and could not have occurred 25 years ago, when the bones had long been fossilized. The lead author is an authority in studying sites where extinct megafauna, both in the US and Siberia, present evidence they were butchered by humans, not nature. And he claims it is very easy to distinguish damage by humans vs. damage by heavy equipment....

The authors of the article and San Diego museum might be criticized for themselves making a big deal of it to the media. Coming out by press conference, even though it is in Nature, might seem presumptuous where their own study is concerned. It is exciting. But speaking of it as proven won't go down well even if it were irrefutable at first glance, which it won't be to most. Both from the point of view of reflexively defending that level of orthodoxy that resists "impossible" dates tooth and nail, and simply because it is only one site, the news should have been presented more cautiously. The way it was presented, I think, is an end run around the opinions of their peers. The team and museum had to know it would be highly controversial by its very nature, without making it sound like a foregone conclusion that changes everything.

Of course, it might. Eventually. But it's a confrontational stance almost, if you're an archaeologist elsewhere working in the peopling of the Americas, and here this small team telling the world they've made a discovery, and this is the brand new narrative. The archaeological community knows press conferences and single sites don't constitute new regimes generally. Science doesn't advance by decree.

So I guess I could view it as I've described, and maybe that's fair. The reaction will be stronger by reason of the aggressive presentation alone. I guess if that's what you want. It might bespeak of one hell of a confident position, in the long run, by the authors. They do have balls. They're confident in their case, and understand the implications would overturn the narrative still again. Hopefully, they're not just caught up in themselves, and actually not only have something with this site, but can advance their theory by finding more sites.

A short video by the San Diego museum describing the discovery of the site and research over the years:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GVeOoWmUnLw

Another short video by the San Diego museum with a more critical look:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyfSsgCrjb0

The San Diego museum's official page devoted to the discovery:

https://www.sdnhm.org/consulting-services/paleo-services/projects/cerutti-mastodon/

Finally, the press conference announcing the paper. Actually begins just before the 7 minute mark. I don't know why the first 7 minutes are not edited out. But, the conference is well worth listening to if the subject matter interests one...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL88N5B2WX2kLhKTOxVca7k4bLSgRU22AQ&v=qQK-8Rk5CKI

The article from Nature. Unfortunately, this was available a week ago, free access, and I had downloaded it and posted it on other sites dealing with such discussions, but I see it is no longer available free. But, here is the abstract and some illustrations from the paper can be viewed:

https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v544/n7651/full/nature22065.html

Bottom line: it's only the beginning. The authors have confidence in their findings but an enormous amount of work remains to convince the archaeological establishment, and that work has to be the discovery of similar sites in geological layers of the same age....

Of the links I posted, the first two videos do at least provide a quick overview education and are worth watching, IMHO...

BTW, as far as the subject title of this thread, the subject of the peopling of the Americas, both the who, the when, and the directions and means of entry, has made this subject very far from settled ever since the dominant paradigm, namely the Clovis-First paradigm, was finally undermined enough to open the field of research up as wide as it is now opened. There have long been pre-Clovis sites claimed and disputed, such as the Meadowcroft Rock Shelter in Pa, and the Monte Verde site in coastal Chile. One theory that has since gained widespread popularity is the so-called Pacific Coast kelp highway hypothesis, which suggests migration and settlement by boat. We know, for instance, that Australian aboregenes(so?)made it to Australia by at least 50,000 years ago. They did not walk there.

Science should probably never be regarded as truly "settled". Science should be self correcting when new data requires it. All too often, on the other hand, human egos defend what sometimes becomes indefensible, and careers can be ruined when people attempt to rock the boat. The Monte Verde, Chile site rocked the boat for many years before it was finally accepted for what it was: proof that people were here before the Clovis culture of of some 13,500 years ago. Thomas Kuhn's seminal work, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", described the fits and starts nature of change in science. Often stated as "new paridigms finally ascend when the last proponents of the old paradigm die". It's human nature, after all, and unfortunately, there have been ugly examples of careers ruined when in fact the new ideas proposed were actually correct....

What made this study mind boggling to many is it goes far beyond the pre-Clovis sites now accepted as valid.

Lol. I keep thinking I'm finished with this comment, but here is one more relevant read. Recent genetic research has supported the notion of a single migration movement into the Americas no earlier then about 23,000 years ago. But there are suggestions of another migration. This article has links to the two studies that attempted to explain this anomalous genetic data:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-33612869

I hope the links I've posted prove informative for those wishing more info. Perhaps the most interesting possibility emerging from this paper is the suggestion that this site may reflect the presence of humans other then our own kind. Perhaps Neanderthals, or the mysterious Denisovans. Which makes the last link interesting, since it is Australasians that display Denisovan genetic traits....
 
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Wow, how the early human got there across the ocean 100,000 years ago is pretty amazing.


How do you guys think they did it?

The article certainly leaves a lot open.

The site from nature.com does a better job, IMO, on looking at the evidence.

The only thing that's actually missing is... well, what we need to confirm; Human remains dated 100k years ago from the same area.

The oldest DNA evidence of human habitation in North America however, has been radiocarbon dated to 14,300 years ago, and was found in fossilized human coprolites uncovered in the Paisley Five Mile Point Caves in south-central Oregon.Mammut americanum only became extinct 10,500 years ago.
 
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