Mormons and the Word of Wisdom
- Thread starter Bronco70
- Start date
Not 100% related but I watched the documentary Beehive Spirits on KUED and it was pretty interesting and good. Just talking of liqueur history in Utah. I would recommend it to LDS and non LDS, just cool state history stuff.
https://video.kued.org/video/2296669328/
https://video.kued.org/video/2296669328/
Fishsticks
Banned
? Is LSD ok?
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
The difference between animals and humans is our sapience, why would you do something that alters it?
GVC
Well-Known Member
Introspection, therapy, fun.
This is one of the issues I had with the church.
In general these types of thought provoking questions weren't favorably looked upon. I commend you for being honest, and willing to speak out about it.
I believe that the truth can, and should be looked at from all sides. Truth has nothing to hide. If we have honest questions we are not trying to
destroy truth. It is natural, and ok to question things. Isn't that why we are on earth? To find the answers, and always be growing?
Moderation just makes sense. When we pray, and think about this many of us come to this belief. Being hung up on one
or two things doesn't really make good sense.
CarteBlanche
Banned
I was born and raised in Montreal, and I was friends with a few mormons here and there (one of which is on a mission right now).
I found that differing people have varying perspectives on what "everything in moderation" means to them.
Of course, as a God, if you want your people to avoid a habit, it is much more effective to say "avoid at ALLL costs" as opposed to "avoid getting drunk". as is in catholic doctrine if I am not mistaken.
Conversely, maybe this avoidance is a test of strength and character, and less of a lifestyle suggestion. In that case, maybe it IS best to just avoid it at all costs.
In the end of the day, Chris's friend Zulu seems to have pegged it right. Believe what you want to believe, and don't judge others for what they want to do with their lives.
I found that differing people have varying perspectives on what "everything in moderation" means to them.
Of course, as a God, if you want your people to avoid a habit, it is much more effective to say "avoid at ALLL costs" as opposed to "avoid getting drunk". as is in catholic doctrine if I am not mistaken.
Conversely, maybe this avoidance is a test of strength and character, and less of a lifestyle suggestion. In that case, maybe it IS best to just avoid it at all costs.
In the end of the day, Chris's friend Zulu seems to have pegged it right. Believe what you want to believe, and don't judge others for what they want to do with their lives.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I've tried to befriend moderation but it wants nothing to do with me.
I understand. I agree--but I see this more as the failings/frailties of individual church members than as a failing of the commandment itself. And it seems that whenever I've heard general conference talks on the topic, they have emphasized the "do"s as well as the "don't"s, and have talked about healthy living in general.
Yes, "small beer" or something with a minimal alcohol content seems very possible to have been what Joseph Smith would have been referring to with the "mild drinks", if not completely non-alcoholic. I don't know enough about historical beverages to say whether completely non-alcoholic drinks would have been around much.
They could have produced it, but I'm not sure if they could have stored or transported it. Probably not, I think. I've never researched this, but I doubt that bottling technology was very advanced back then. They would have had no idea of germ theory, so they wouldn't have understood that completely sealing potable water from outside contaminants would keep it potable.
God is unchanging, but people and societies change. Therefore I think it's reasonable that God's directions to us will be tailored to the society in which we live. That's a major issue I have with people (some born-again Christians, for example) who feel that the Bible is the sole and complete word of God--just to take one quick example, Paul specifically tells the people (Corinthians, I think) not to let women speak in church. Well, that may have been appropriate for their society, but I don't believe that's what God wants for our society. So, to me, continuing revelation makes perfect sense, even if it leads to one group of people receiving slightly different commandments than another group. Sure, the biggies will stay the same--love your neighbor will never go away
--but things like modifying the WoW to now be a complete prohibition on alcohol/coffee/tea don't bother me too much. And I think someone else has already brought up drugs like heroin & LSD which didn't even exist in Joseph Smith's time.
Your comment reminds me of another point I should make to Bronco.
Although a large part of the WoW is teaching us to live healthily by avoiding bad substances and using good substances, I think this aspect of developing strength and character is also part of it.
And more than that, I really think that the commandment has been given to us so that we would stand out from the crowd and be a "peculiar people". In that sense, it's a lot like the kosher commandments for Jews. Thinking of pork in particular... Yes, back in the day eating pigs could well have made you sick--but why didn't God just teach the people in the Old Testament how to properly clean the pigs rather than commanding them to not partake of pork at all? I think it was in large part so that they would be different from others--special, if you like. That was a sign of them being God's covenant people.
Having the WoW as a commandment to God's covenant people today (as we LDS see ourselves)--having a group of people who all refrain from smoking, drinking, etc.--serves a similar purpose.* Or so it seems to me. Some more food for thought for you.
* I've never thought of this before, but this actually seems to make perfect sense with the gradual switch to the absolute prohibitions during the period from 1850-1920. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, there was plenty else to make the LDS distinctive--they lived mainly in their own communities, many practiced polygamy, etc. But in the early 20th century they stopped with polygamy, didn't ask people to move to Utah, and so forth. So perhaps that has something to do with why the WoW became absolute prohibitions over that time period rather than just suggested guidelines.
There are a lot of different issues to discuss but I'll try to keep it short and not expound much more than Colton already has.
It's quite frequent that we tend to look at the WoW simply as a "law of health" which often tends to miss the mark. There's also too much culture embedded into what we understand the WoW to be that we often end up attacking our own faulty understandings of the WoW rather than attacking the WoW itself. I think it's best understood from a distance so we can appreciate it a bit better. The best way to do this is looking back in the past for different commandments God has given. The easiest example would be the Law of Moses and the portion of it that forbids the consumption of pork products, as this is a readily understood idea. When we look at it in hindsight, we clearly see it simply as a commandment that God gave and that people were to follow. We generally don't tend to find justification for the reasons it was given but just accept that it was something that was part of a covenant between God and Israel and not that there was something inherently unholy and unrighteous with pork products. In our day, we have a tendency to rationalize things to determine whether or not we follow them (i.e. you always hear people talking about all the reasons to keep the WoW based on 'science' or what have you). When we look at the WoW through the lens of health only, we've already missed the mark -- just as you would miss the mark in ancient Israel if you focused on the health implications of abstaining from pork products -- neither one of them are solely concerned with those goals as a primary purpose. We also tend to try to verify (or invalidate) the WoW based on some type of arbitrary definition of 'health' with whatever passing research is going on. The fact that we view the WoW as primarily health related, and we verify it with scientific data, puts us on shaky ground and subjects us to whatever discoveries are made regarding any portion of the WoW. "A glass of wine is good for this..." "Coffee can prevent gallstones..." "high calorie diets make you fat" etc., etc. All of these examples miss the mark much as in the same way the command to abstain from pork was not about keeping cholesterol levels low nor about preventing the spread of trichinosis, though those may have been desirable byproducts of keeping the command.
The bigger issue isn't whether or not beer is worse than coke or if smoking can calm agitation in schizophrenics more than Jelly Beans, the bigger issue is whether or not we're honoring covenants entered into. Yes, it's not good to stuff your face with cream pie, but these are separate issues that need teasing apart rather than blurring them together to obscure the focus and never gaining an appreciation of the WoW as a covenant (like the Law of Moses) rather than exclusively some type of Dr. Oz health advice to improve your stamina and libido.
It's quite frequent that we tend to look at the WoW simply as a "law of health" which often tends to miss the mark. There's also too much culture embedded into what we understand the WoW to be that we often end up attacking our own faulty understandings of the WoW rather than attacking the WoW itself. I think it's best understood from a distance so we can appreciate it a bit better. The best way to do this is looking back in the past for different commandments God has given. The easiest example would be the Law of Moses and the portion of it that forbids the consumption of pork products, as this is a readily understood idea. When we look at it in hindsight, we clearly see it simply as a commandment that God gave and that people were to follow. We generally don't tend to find justification for the reasons it was given but just accept that it was something that was part of a covenant between God and Israel and not that there was something inherently unholy and unrighteous with pork products. In our day, we have a tendency to rationalize things to determine whether or not we follow them (i.e. you always hear people talking about all the reasons to keep the WoW based on 'science' or what have you). When we look at the WoW through the lens of health only, we've already missed the mark -- just as you would miss the mark in ancient Israel if you focused on the health implications of abstaining from pork products -- neither one of them are solely concerned with those goals as a primary purpose. We also tend to try to verify (or invalidate) the WoW based on some type of arbitrary definition of 'health' with whatever passing research is going on. The fact that we view the WoW as primarily health related, and we verify it with scientific data, puts us on shaky ground and subjects us to whatever discoveries are made regarding any portion of the WoW. "A glass of wine is good for this..." "Coffee can prevent gallstones..." "high calorie diets make you fat" etc., etc. All of these examples miss the mark much as in the same way the command to abstain from pork was not about keeping cholesterol levels low nor about preventing the spread of trichinosis, though those may have been desirable byproducts of keeping the command.
The bigger issue isn't whether or not beer is worse than coke or if smoking can calm agitation in schizophrenics more than Jelly Beans, the bigger issue is whether or not we're honoring covenants entered into. Yes, it's not good to stuff your face with cream pie, but these are separate issues that need teasing apart rather than blurring them together to obscure the focus and never gaining an appreciation of the WoW as a covenant (like the Law of Moses) rather than exclusively some type of Dr. Oz health advice to improve your stamina and libido.
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TheSilencer1313
Well-Known Member
I was baptized LDS, and have been in and out of the church my entire life (mostly out).
I've read many times that wine used to be allowed to be drank at baptism services, and coffee wasn't even an issue.
Joseph Smith then decided on these issues after many members were drinking too much and getting drunk at church.
I've read many times that wine used to be allowed to be drank at baptism services, and coffee wasn't even an issue.
Joseph Smith then decided on these issues after many members were drinking too much and getting drunk at church.
Zulu
Well-Known Member
Just want to shout out to my boys Chris and PKM!! Chris your definitely one of the best dudes I know, and have been blessed to know you for as long as I have!!
PKM, I've only known you for a short time,but I respect you far more than many people I've know for my whole life!! You have the right attitude about life and respect all people for who they are, something we all could learn from ya!!
To everyone else who has given some insight of the subject I appreciate your comments and interpretations of the WOW (especially infection)... I just may take elders quorum of tomorrow!
PKM, I've only known you for a short time,but I respect you far more than many people I've know for my whole life!! You have the right attitude about life and respect all people for who they are, something we all could learn from ya!!
To everyone else who has given some insight of the subject I appreciate your comments and interpretations of the WOW (especially infection)... I just may take elders quorum of tomorrow!
That really is a bitch but it's not too hard to deal with really. Invest a few Sundays each year going to church and look at it as a neighborhood meet and greet. They'll get to know you and start seeing you as a real person. Pretend interested too. Before you know it your neighbors will be begging their children to befriend yours as a missionary effort.
The best thing about this is there's a good chance they won't want their children going to your house while wanting yours at theirs. While some might get offended by this, I see it as a blessing sending the havok elsewhere. & I really have no problem with someone who doesn't want their children around beer drinking. It doesn't bother me one bit when my neighbors don't want their children inside my house as I really don't want them here either.
Chris-L
Well-Known Member
@ franklin. thanks for the advice, sincerely, but we have decided it would just be easier to move.
@ stoked. i have an 8 yo girl, 7 yo boy, 6 yo girl, and 2 yo girl. you got my number, hit me up for a playdate anytime. we are moving over the next few weeks so things will be crazy for a while, but if our kids are close in age we should def make it happen sometime.
@ zulu. BFF league 4evar
@ stoked. i have an 8 yo girl, 7 yo boy, 6 yo girl, and 2 yo girl. you got my number, hit me up for a playdate anytime. we are moving over the next few weeks so things will be crazy for a while, but if our kids are close in age we should def make it happen sometime.
@ zulu. BFF league 4evar